+1 but...
if the problem was so easy...im pretty sure they would have solved it by now.

you would have to hire some pretty talented people in software and audio engineering to put together a better algorithm

also remember rane doesnt have anything to do with software development
its all serato

ok, so explain how all those companies have done it better then (in the link in my first post)?

explain how shitty ass numark have a better algorithm in their cdj's (as does pioneer)...

they can do it, but they're scared of it being too taxing on the cpu, i'm sure. but give us an option, like how ableton has "beats", "complex", and "complex pro", etc...

just saying man, after everything they've done in the last 4 years they coulda made us at least one better option.

it sounds like complete shit. even one smidgen off of 0 pitch on some tracks.

lol
you're right, I have some old numark axis cdjs and they actually have a really cool feature allowing you to raise or lower the pitch without affecting tempo...
- if only scratch live could implement this along with a higher quality key lock.

but to be fair, I use keylock on SL almost always and I don't notice too awful much degradation... (but I try to never go more than +/- 4 on the pitch fader)

yeah, i actually used that numark cdj you're talking about to force something in key b4. it's a very cool feature.

i do want that ability, but all i'm asking for is just plain old key lock to sound better.

a lot of people don't realize it, but if you pay close attention (it's most evident in a car with subs in the trunk), it's chopping your basslines up into pieces. like an lfo would.

i've noticed it doing it even just a hair off of 0 pitch, doesn't even have to be +/- 1 or more...

it's worse than any cdj's algorithm i've heard. completely unacceptable considering serato is the industry standard.

I dont know when I pitch my stuff up with key it doesnt sound horrible but I dont really pitch my stuff up very high

this thread = +10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

I don't use the sp6
I don't use efx
I don't use smart crates
I don't use any different display other than original
I don't use any artwork display at all

I do use keylock
It does sound like shit

I DO use artwork.
I DO use smart crates.
I'm about to start doing Video...

But yeah, a better keylock would be nice,
ie better correction when slowing down the track.




So basically, you can record your set to Ableton with the Bridge, then turn on "Complex Pro" and export it? I'm asking because I recently got the 68, and now thinking about buying Ableton and the APC20...

@ warpnote, how do u like the 68 so far?

I'm always telling other DJ's they shouldn't be using Key Lock because it sounds like shit, but apparently most of them can't hear the difference.

And they wonder why so many venues aren't going out of their way to provide good sound systems...LOFL.

Unless you're mixing in an empty room (or lounge), a room full of intoxicated people won't be able to tell the difference. That and if you're not pitching it too low or too high, you won't be able to tell the difference... and also, if you're not playing a song with excessive bass... you won't be able to tell the difference.

And, even if you can tell the difference, it doesn't sound as horrible for anyone to stop using it OR COMMON SENSE WOULD DICTATE THAT THEY WOULD'VE STOPPED ALREADY.

I mean, if it was REAAAALLY so noticeable like a mic that feedbacks.

Having said that, all those are not excuses for not being fixed it. Get on it Serato.

It really isn't about whether "a room full of intoxicated people" will consciously notice a difference or not.

One could attempt to apply that same reasoning to any number of other things that degrade the overall experience (and plenty of short-sighted club owners/managers/promoters do exactly that, to their own ultimate detriment).

Might as well stick with YouTube rips and 128kbps Limewire downloads if our quality target is going to be "a room full of intoxicated people".

[Disclaimer - i agree that it would be nice to have these issues addressed]

your post is stupid. threatening to jump ship is idiotic. they don't owe you anything, yet the continue to update and tweak the software at no charge to you. at least show some freaking respect on their website. you want action, your best bet is to articulate your concern in a way that doesn't make you sound like a sobbing 10 year old girl.

PS - key lock isn't infinite if you pitch up or down 8 or more % then you're gonna have issues. that's pretty basic understanding. anything more than that and you should be using a different song. no software is gonna help you with that.

+1 its rarity that I go plus 8

I'd be the last person to disagree about using extreme pitch settings, but on certain songs the artifacts from Key Lock are clearly noticeable at ANY pitch setting above or below 0.

A lot of the newbies probably don't even know that about five years ago Serato mentioned a higher-quality Key Lock algorithm that was planned for introduction as a plug-in. Based on their super-high-quality "Pitch & Time" Pro Tools plug-in. I'm hoping that product is still something that will happen. I'd absolutely be willing to pay something like $99 for that. Seems like by now, CPU speeds should be fast enough to support that kind of processing in real time (which I think was the main problem holding it up in 2005/2006 when it was first discussed).

shut up.

first of all i've been in contact with them personally, was asked ages ago to beta test a new key lock but then they never came through with it, and have been on them about this is a well mannered, professional way for 4 years now.

they've continued to ignore it and i'm sick of it. i keep hearing about other software being better at it and it makes me wanna jump ship. but i shouldn't have to, this can't be that hard to fix.

perhaps they just don't think many people care about this, so maybe it's time to make more and more threads like this (even tho we have several in the feature suggestions forum), and put more pressure on them about it.

2nd of all, as DJMark said above, you must not be listening closely at all, because as i've said a couple/few times now, the artifacts can be heard even a touch off of 0 pitch, not even +/- 1 percent. i'm not even talking about going up or down +/- 8...

they don't owe me anything, but when they fail miserably, coming in last among all other software and cdj's algorithms, it makes them look really bad. i just want them to fix it, and i'm done being nice about it. i shouldn't have to go buy a whole new program to have a decent sounding key lock when they're perfectly capable of fixing this (as show in all the numerous other harder to do things they've implemented that aren't even as widely used as key lock).

people can stop coming in here saying stuff about pitching up too high or low, kthnx.

we're not talking about doing that. we're talking about anywhere other than 0 pitch and it chops up low end sounds (basslines, vocals, strings, anything with any low end). and of course it gets worse the further from 0 you stray, but it's bad anywhere other than dead on 0.

just because you don't notice doesn't mean it's not there. i could easily point it out to you on any decent sound system.

and it has nothing to do with the quality of the file, i've put a straight lossless wave file straight out of ableton into serato and it's done it. it's worse on some bass sounds than others for some reason tho.

and LOL at saying something about not playing songs with excessive bass... SMH.

New Order "Thieves Like Us" and Lipps Inc "Funkytown".

Two songs that are absolutely RUINED by any attempt to use them with Key Lock.

I do accept, begrudgingly, that if you're a DJ who plays nothing but Today's Hottest Crap And A Scattering Of Floor-Filling Recurrents, sound quality is probably not as big a concern as far more pressing matters like self-promoting on FeceBook and getting some coked-out promoter/manager/owner to actually pay you.

But again, this topic really isn't about The Lowest Common Denominator. Some of us do care, a lot, about the music we play and the way it sounds.

I think it's great that Rane has stepped it up with the SL-3/SL-4/68 hardware...they're obviously not thinking of The Lowest Common Denominator when designing their products. Thank (insert your choice of deity here)!

I'm pretty sure i recorded a mix tape for some well known people in my area so that i could score some gigs (already done they just want the mix) And i DO notice this, I've only pitched up or down by 2% wtf up w/ that?
Does anyone think about that? Yea those drunk people that you are playing for dont care, But the dj booking me for that night will, you know, Since us as dj's nitpick stuff like that...and serato is the INDUSTRY STANDARD
I havent used any other options so i cant speak on that level, But i do notice this and if there were a "Like button" for this thread i would like it..

Practice beatmixing and riding pitch with some older songs with a live drummer, leaving off keylock.

Then just leave it off. :-)

Serato has spoiled the babies and now they're revolting. haha.

Sadly, that's what happens when a company listens to its customers... they grow conditioned to whine about every little thing they feel should be changed like some silver-spoon-fed brats. I'm glad they continue to listen and hope they take the feedback from this forum with a brick of rock salt.

If you can't play a good-sounding set because of the keylock algorithm, then maybe the problem isn't just the software. try turning off the keylock. or going back to vinyl. you've got alot of options and ranting on the Serato Forum might be the least effective to making your set sound good. I've found ways to work around my issues. I hope you can too.

Disclaimer:
Just home from my sat gig, not tipsy, but a little worn out.
Chilling with a bottle or Chardonnay and a pizza snack.

DJchrischip,
I love my 68 so far. I've only had it for a few weeks, and I've brought it to every gig I had since. (I normally tag-team with another DJ) Need to sell my SL1, and get the SL4 (very stocked about the new box) for the venues that have "bolted on house mixer". The cue point buttons are a little heavy, my (cheap) Denon HC1000S actually has a better feel IMO. Maybe there will be a custom rubber kit? And the layout on the HC1000s is really well thought out, really love that little thing (misqoute welcome...;) Maybe I should get the dicers to go with the 68, we'll se. My macbook only has 2 usb ports and I cant be bothered bringing a hub for gigs. (keep 1 port for the APC20..)

I've always been biased towards Pioneer club mixers. My first mayor club had the old DJM 500, then the 600, later the 800, My hip-hop friends were always about Vestax, so I've had quite a few gigs on the PMC mixers (the slim samurais, 2 channel ones and the 3 channel ones.). Generally a good experience. Also another residence of mine had the Rane 56, really tight and nice mixer, but I have to say, IMO, the 57 was a little letdown when it came to the built in FX, they felt awkward and hard to use, and didn't like the small buttons. Then again, I've only played on that mixer live once.

The things I like about the 68:
-> Overall build quality
-> It's not overloaded with fx, only the ones you really need,
and they are instantly available (with individual saved presets) from a button,
no need to turn a selection knob like pio.
-> Great to have the LPF/HPF for each channel ready to go.
-> The EQ on the Rane is so much nicer than PIO, full kill = a lot better control of sound.
-> cross and line fader curve control.
-> flexfx architecture/routing
-> cues/loops/rolls/track scroll (but they need to change the back button to work like tab, right now its useless...)

Things the 68 could improve:
-> response for cues/buttons (custom rubber kit?)
Not much else...

The faders on the 68 is a little crammed compared to a 800,
but I got used to them within few days of playing on it.

Sixx, the orange salesman...
About drunk patrons, I feel you. anyone saying something different would be lying, to themselves and others... That beeing said, whenever you can deliver a great tune sounding pristine on the system (even if pitched -7% or whatever) the audience will "feel" even better, IMO... always strive for perfection.

BRAVO!!!



::and give us FLAC too::

HELL YEAH!!

Very well said, my friend!

you're exactly the kinda person i hate coming into a thread like this.

so we're spoiled because we want them to upgrade a feature more widely used than most of the features they've put their time and money into over the last 4 years? a feature that chops up low end sounds and sounds like complete shit.

one of the perks of using new dj technology that allows us to play digital files is the key lock feature. there's no reason why we wouldn't want our favorite digital dj program to at least keep up with the competition and make it sound decent.

and please, i began DJing in 1996. i still got my entire vinyl collection (probably 30 crates +), and can mix circles around most with just straight vinyl, beatmatching tighter than a squirrel's asshole, all pitch, no finger fucking the record. it's not about not being able to play a good set, it's about playing a better set. it's not like we're whining about something small, they, serato, the industry standard, have been ranked dead last among all their competition and they've ignored it for 4 years.

i'm an oldschool d&b DJ at heart, and basslines being chopped to shit is unacceptable. ranting on the serato forum is probably the only thing we can do. meanwhile you're ranting about us ranting on the serato forum. so fuck off.

"ranting on the serato forum is probably the only thing we can do. meanwhile you're ranting about us ranting on the serato forum. so fuck off."

+1

I refuse to use the key lock in ScratchLive it sounds so bad. If it's not chopping the sounds up its smearing them. Its not on every track but a lot will also sound like a sheep, bleating.

I would love to be able to use it, as it makes mixing in key easier, but I would rather just work out the pitch difference myself than ruin the music.

Yes, when you play in a club or mobile, not everyone is going to notice what's happening, but what about those who do radio, or make demo's etc? Sober people listen too!

And why the fuck would going back to vinyl (a totally redundant format) help us mix with keylock? what a fucking ignorant suggestion.

dinner for schmucks.

Yes, I've had to make the same compensations for mixing in key. Though, I don't see Serato dropping everything to fix KEYLOCK based on this issue alone.



Very true, and the same argument could be applied to having FLAC support as well ;)



Hahaha....Damn, I must have missed reading that. Was it said above?

You know that a new algo with provides...
- keep the key
- keep the timing

would most likely do the same... "cpu draining shit". ;)

But I completely agree, the keylock sounds like sh*t.

+999999999999999999999

I'm thinking everyday of selling my SL3 and embracing the pioneer 900/2000 + usb key trend.

I'll add: if we cared for FX, bells & whistles we'd been buying Traktor.

Not addressing software-related sound quality issues makes the new super-performing hardware totally useless

+1

Anybody having this key-lock issue on the TTM57SL? Probably doesn't matter because it sounds like a software issue and I think this mixer has SL1 guts. I never really use keylock so I will have to go check it out and get back to you with my findings. I am kind of pissed because sound quality is a big reason I didn't buy VDJ or Torq (pre Elastique) and I got burned with Traktor certified mixers in the past. My thought was, cant go wrong with Rane sound quality. If this key-lock problem is true, I think Rane now has drivers unlocked from SSL (for those ready to "jump ship"!)

It's not the hardware, its the software algorithms that need addressing

If it was the 57, the music/audio would be bad too, which its not

yeah, i know, that's my point. if the reason for not fixing key lock is because it'd be taxing on the cpu (i think this is what we've heard b4), then why add all this shit they've added (which is also cpu taxing) when they needed to get the basics they already had right first?

i don't mind the cpu draining if it would sound good. i'd take that in place of almost everything they've added since they first implemented key lock in early 2007. i say that because as a fan of basslines, this has made me not want to release recordings using key lock in serato (tho i really like using it) because it screws 'em up so bad.

again, some of us have powerful enough computers so they should at least give us a "high quality" option.

taxing the cpu too much is bullshit anyways, other programs don't sound as bad and they work just fine.

serato is by far the worst on the market.

i like serato, i want them to win all around, but this being ignored for this long while releasing all this new shit just ain't right.

it's a MAJOR sound quality problem.

I agree.

I dont see how they dont address the keylock and they have a partnership with damn ableton who has a pretty decent algorithm

THANKS 4 the response

bottom line...
u think 68 over pio 800?

i was really fired up wen the 68 came out... now not so much,
and super fired up now with the sl4...
but last night kind of ruined it 4 me...
me n a dj friend were talking about our market
started as a like commentary on scratching and its place in the club
moved over to efx as well as how long to play the songs out etc...
its becoming a question is there a need 4 a 3rd and 4th deck...
I have my idea however idk if i can get it to work etc...

djchrischip,
lets put it this way, my last mixer was a Pioneer, even though it was a 600,
I've played quite a lot on the 800, as it seems to be the standard around these parts.

Would I fork out the dough for a sixty eight if I didnt think it over the 800? ;-)

I am currently thinking
VSL setup/ 4 1200 setup
4 channel pioneer 800
sl4
Video midi mapped crossfader n ch1, and 2
channel 3 for redrum drum samples (trying to find some in the near future)
channel 4 for any hype needed over mixers via 4th deck and possibly route the sampler to channel 4 as well

opinions?

If that's your playing style, I guess you'll be happy with that setup.
If you wanna dive into Ableton, you might wanna go for the sixty eight.

Also, you'll be running a few more cables with the 800 setup.

Whenever I'm about to do a serious purchase, I always make a point to try out the unit first hand.

I've been running the SL1 for about 3 years, even though I got the new mixer,
I'll probably swap the SL1 for a SL4 sometime in April.

good advice, I love my 57 simply bc i can plug in and go... i also hav 2 sl1s so its not lik a big deal if I dont get the sl4... I may eventually get it.. I been so very happy with my 57 n am so used to it tht idk if i even see a reason to change

better master tempo +1

Ok, I am back with the test results... You are not the father! (Sorry had to add a little Maury Povich joke.) I ran my 57 into a real time sound analyzer program and found even at +/- 50% you never lose anything (Full sound spectrum.) The only thing that seems to happen is the more you change the BPM, you will be begin to hear what sounds like an odd stutter chorus like effect take over. Call it what you want but 90% of listeners (lets say in a recorded mix) will hear this. Especially if you have vocals. So what is it Searto? Should we change... or do you? Not giving an ultimatum here. Just wondering where the problem lies. Becuase I don't know sh*t about algorithms but I do kind of understand CPU, USB1.1 and compressed audio like iTunes. Is this a factor? I tried different track bit rates and PC's with different CPU power and or USB quality. Still the same thing going on with little change to the naked ear. I will give Serato some credit here. Its got to be really hard to recreate every nuance of someones voice and we are talking about changing track BPM live and somehow keeping pitch. Maybe more than we probably should at this point in technology. Where do we go from here. The only "other program" I own is VDJ and man do they suck when put through the same test. Can my boys at Serato do even better yet? Or is this just a none issue for them?
P.S.
I also recreated the same test Proto J spoke of at the start of this forum post.(www.djtechtools.com) Only with Serato Scratch Live and I get better results than example E (Serato itch) but nothing like example D (Traktor Pro HiQ) why is that? ...and is'nt that what we are supposed to be discussing here?

+1 for better algorithm

let's keep this thread around, hopefully the folks at serato will see we take this seriously and finally do something about it for us.

+++++++

Pioneer CDJ's do it so much better and have been around for 8+ years... I know its hardware, but the mk1's are OLD hardware in a little plastic box.

And I second better Keylock over other features. Love the new stuff, but c'mon, we got integration with a great program (ableton/bridge) that makes serato look weak comparatively.

It's unlikely! Though, I know what could get us what we need......

They should just make it a purchasable plugin. What company would be against making more money from software they vowed to keep free? We have a purchasable plugin for video.....well, I propose they offer a plugin package. Say, they give us a (ScratchLIVE specific) Pitch n' Time plugin, coupled w' addditional codec support like FLAC....they could even throw in a Tempo-Sync'd SP-6 plugin.

CHARGE US FOR IT, SERATO!!!!!!!!

At this point, I would gladly pay up to $150 for these 3 options....$50.00 a piece, or fuck it, force us to pay the $150.00 for the lot.....I don't care!

Y'all said that you will always keep ScratchLIVE updates free......cool, we have maaaddd respect for Y'all following your business model. But if you keeping that model is limiting you from having the resources necessary to give your customers what they've been asking for, for years....then do what MUST be done......secure the resources for the options through "optional" purchasable content.

Offering these features as an optional purchase relieves you of any responsibility of ensuring that the features must be able to run on all machines. Only those with adequate PCs will buy them. This is an all around win/win for everyone involved!

Regardless of whether you recognize it or not, there is a segment of your customer base that want/require more pro-grade features. We're not all playing Top40 garbage to a drunken/dumbed-down crowd. At my residency, I play Minimal Techno, Deep House, Trip.Hop, and Future.Garage....do you think my crowd can't recognize when the music sounds like shit? They are all old, grown-up ravers....their ear for Fidelity is on par with my own.

As the years progress it get's increasingly difficult to continue to Support ScratchLIVE when it seems like all you care about is adding more and more "flashy" features that ONLY seem to appeal to the masses! You know, there are kats on here who have been w' you since the beginning (or nearly so), that require a little more refined ScratchLIVE experience. For the love of God, please give it to us!!!!!

I WILL PAY.

The funny thing is that they announced it exactly as such five or more years ago.

Good point.


Announced FLAC?

He's probably referring to the Pitch n' Time plugin that they talked about years ago. But they MUST offer FLAC too.......it has to be included if such a pluging package were to be available......I am going to go postal if the shit isn't implemented at some point....LOL!

Ah PnT... the mysterious PnT.

I gave up - no hope. Let's hope I am wrong.

maybe you should repost this in this section --> serato.com and Serato might pay attention to it

I call this section Shenigans :-P

No, I think we get more attention right here near the top of the DJing Discussion Forum....a constant reminder to nearly every member of this site! Who doesn't go to DJing Discussion at least once during their visit to Serato Forums? I almost always check it out.

because thats gotten us far, wheres the PnT algorithm weve been asking for for how long? Wheres our empathSL? Where is our SL upgrade program LOL



why do the members need to be reminded we dont create the updates



apparenlty the people who work at rane and serato (besides chad lol)




this

You know, If we we had as much passion & enthusiasm for quality ScratchLIVE features as we do for that fuckin' Control Vinyl......ScratchLIVE would be the best damned DVS out there!

The difference being that I am proposing they CHARGE us for it....perhaps that will give them some incentive for getting it done.

thats the difference but the similarities are...your PROPOSING to have something happen in a place noone is looking for proposals, when there is in fact a section where proposals are sought....also what your proposing goes against their general busniess model so im douting it would happen

...stopped tracking...

^ Yeah, but so does the Video Plugin ^

Look, these are specific "optional" features.....that doesn't necessarily go against their business model. Besides, why are you arguing this, Bezzle? Wouldn't you like to have the option to have these features, even if it meant that you had to pay an additional fee. i mean, damn, the ScratchLIVE I have now compared to the ScratchLIVE I bought over 5 years ago are light years apart....and I only paid $480.00 for it. If I have to drop an additional $150.00 to $200.00 for some features I've been begging for, for years, I'd say that's still a freakin' bargain.

buster!

no the video plugin to me was like a seperat product, i as a customer would be pissed if they did what your proposing, it wouild be like saying, here you can buy this, but if want it to work worth a shit were gonna nickel and dime the hell out of you. It would be like saying here pay 899 and you will have the abililty to spin 2 records, want to search your tracks add $50, want to have it sound good ad $400, want it to be finctional add $300, was this but fix add $122


If i wanted to pay for everything i would have went with traktor

You're being dramatic.

I already did that....I didn't like the results. I LOVE ScratchLIVE, I just want it to be better.....apparently, that's asking too much these days.

I pad for a plugin made by Serato and it hasn't had any significant updates in forever.

Also, I don't want to pay for better algorithms, I do that already by using only Rane approved hardware. The only thing I would pay for was the ability to unlock other sound cards for Serato. Other than that updating algorithms falls under the updates needed category.

I don't know why you would have to pay for an updated algorithm just work on one for an update that's all

typically.....in either case my biggest gripe isthe location of where your potitioning for it, seriosuly even if it was thinkable it would be a feature request...just sayin

Their not going to, so alas, we will never see these features updated. The whole reason Proto-J made this thread was because of the lack of response from the Feature Request Forum. It's hopeless.

FLAC = 6 Years (4 years for me)
KEYLOCK = 3 1/2 Years
Tempo-Sync's SP-6 = Since right after it was released, about a 1 Year 1/2

Perhaps I should just buy back my Traktor Scratch, and learn to deal w' the lack of support & Library issues....but again, I would prefer to use ScratchLIVE for the rest of my days :(

Hell, if I were rich, I would pay someone at Serato to implement these features JUST for me....but I'm not. I'm just a broke-ass, hobbyist DJ w' a passion for High Quality Sound.

+1 this is kinda what im saying if you have a better algorithim and the algoithim is a MAJOR part of your product why would you leave the inferior algorithm in play

Cool, then will a mod please move this thread into the Feature Requests Forum, so it can be ignored for another few years like the rest of the threads identical to it.

I can't possibly see why they wouldn't do it, I mean it's a perfectly reasonable request for a dvs program. I see it happening maybe in like scratch live 3.0

I highly doubt the numbers are right

www.serato.com PnT plugin for SL, mentioned in July 2004. At around the same time the first Flac requests pop up.

You would know better than me, Nik......you have some of the very first posts in the FLAC thread.

I can only comment as to when I started following the requests.

it should at least be an option like the hi-fi resampler. allow the users to access a high-quality key lock for people with good specs...

The thing is, they have been working on it over the years - i just think they haven't gotten it right... i remember there was one beta of 1.9 or something that had a new keylock algorhythm and it sucked - 2.0 also had a new algorythm and it also sounded worse. I just think they haven't nailed it properly yet (which is odd since as people mentioned, they do make pitch n time...)

and now that ableton is in the mix, and has been for the last year, at least for developers, you'd think they'd take a cue from that algorythm

+1

But it has to be noted that Pitch n Time is a non-real-time file-based processor, so there isn't any issues with latency or concern about what happens if CPU demands are too high.

I remember the beta with the "new" keylock...it actually did sound a LOT better on certain music, but on further investigation it was messing around with the rhythm in such an unpredictable way that it made some songs impossible to mix.

Obviously if the fix was "easy" it would have been done already...but I do hope this thread helps motivate them to put some more effort into it.

yeah, i made this thread in here specifically because every thread we've had in the feature suggestions forum has seemingly been ignored (i started one in there all the way back in '07, and there's been several since, and i just recently bumped one). and this particular forum probably has the most traffic.

just want them to see this is more of a pressing issue than all this other shit they've been adding over the last 4 years since keylock has been implemented, and they need to take it more seriously. if they put a fraction of the time into keylock that they've put into all this other shit a majority of people don't even use they'd likely have the best keylock algorithm on the market.

just can't believe they've just released sl4 and put all this emphasis on sound quality while they're coming in dead last in sound quality among all their competitors on a feature arguably more widely used than anything else they've implemented since.

I agree.

bump!

+1 to just about everything in this thread!

The only thing I have to add at the moment is, I don't see it so much as an either/or scenario between improved key lock and the new features they have been putting out. I think with proper scheduling and focus they can do both ;) However, if due to resource concerns, it's a choice between paying for it and not getting it at all, I'd be down to fork over a few bucks! Though, still, it would be good to focus on the key lock issue first, and then get back to those fun extras ;)

That said, I think Serato has done a great job creating a stable, rock-solid product, and the key lock quality should be one of their main concerns right now. All the other 'basic' parts of their software are, like I said, top-notch. I've never had a problem with the cue-ing, looping, timecode stuff or any other 'basic' parts of the software; it's always performed great and with great sound & quality. They've built a great reputation for having this focus, and it would serve them well to continue to have this focus by workin' on the key lock :D

- Rome

FUCK KEY LOCK!!
Learn how to DJ

/end rant

That doesn't make sense. Do you even know what "keylock" is?

I think you are getting keylock confused with auto-sync.

i mean it DOES make sense, part of djing back in the day was knowing how far you could pitch a song to raise up a key, build energy before it started sounding like shit

I guess.

QUOTE FAIL on the first one! Here is what I meant.




That doesn't make sense. Do you even know what "keylock" is?

I think you are getting keylock confused with auto-sync.


i mean it DOES make sense, part of djing back in the day was knowing how far you could pitch a song to raise up a key, build energy before it started sounding like shit

not only that, but before key lock, mixing in key was a lot more difficult. It took trial and error to find which 2 songs would mix harmonically. You couldn't just use a program like Mixed In Key and go by BPM ranges like you can now.

grr. last paragraph in the one above. not gonna do it a 3rd time.

You know what makes me laugh about a lot of you? To a degree you are hypocrites. You are no longer oldskool vinyl DJs. Whether you like to admit it or not, you are now Digtal DJs. We are using software now. Our only connection to the oldskool is the fact that a lot of us use vinyl w' turntables to control our software.

Seriously! I am sooo sick of hearing this "back in the day...blah, blah, blah, you were a real DJ if you did thus" bullshit!! Listen, I've been playing for 15 years now.....started w' vinyl just like most of you. But, I for one, love how much easier ScratchLIVE has made the DJing experience, and am in no hurry to deny myself the functionality that digital DJing has afforded me.

So.......give me better Keylock, give me a synchronized SP-6, give me more internal effects, give me FLAC support, give me Key recognition/correction, give me a whole host of shit for the future that I can't even imagine right now.

ScratchLIVE is a software program.......DVS = Digital Vinyl System

If you hate progress so much, why don't you revert back to playing "ONLY" vinyl?!?

Im going to keep bitching about it until they make a comdey software that will let me automate a stand up act that will kill in the clubs, then ill be all for advancments in technology

To answer your question... Yes, I know what KEY LOCK is.

And I'm sick of hearing guys complaining about not having certain features. Just shut u about it and go play the damn music. Turn off the KEY LOCK and learn how to be creative so you don't sound like every other DJ out there.

where do you ppl buy flac?

LOL at "be creative"...

shut up.

technology is allowing us to be more creative than ever b4.

key lock and key correction is allowing us to be more creative by forcing songs together in key that normally wouldn't be possible.

excuse us for wanting this new technology to actually sound good so we can use it to it's fullest potential.

please, post a mix or vid of you killing it and being so creative.

+ 1

so basically... "how can i be creative if the software won't do it for me"?

Stop being a smart-ass....I'm sure all of us have some pretty amazing mixes we did strictly on vinyl from back in the day. the software merely gives you more tools to act upon your own innate creativity.

yeah, shut up. i started DJing in 1996, didn't buy serato until 2007. that's 11 years of carrying crates upon crates, won a dj battle, and put out a ton of mixes that got worldwide attention in the D&B game.

we're using the software to be MORE creative.

keep reaching tho.

what do you mean "you people"?? Watchwww.youtube.com

Seriously...and I'm not referring to either blackavenger or Proto J or DJ Fez (or really most of the other participants in this thread), I have to wonder why a few people bother posting the stuff they do.

That aside, the only way I *do* kind of see Key Lock as "cheating" would be that leaving it on allows a DJ to be much more careless when mixing.

But since to my ears Key Lock seriously degrades the audio, that is really my main objection to it.

Tiny side-bar...not all songs are in an exact key when pitched to zero, and there are other ways of doing harmonic mixing besides leaving Key Lock on.

For which genre, snob dee-jays?

There are loads of places on the net that offer FLAC. In fact, nowadays when you purchase a .Wav file, it comes in a FLAC shell. Tell me which genre you're seeking, and I'll push you in the right direction ;)

oh i know, i'm just saying, using key lock is another option of getting something to work and in key.

that feature on that old numark cdj that allowed you to change the key of songs was awesome! ironically it's algorithm was better than serato's...

kinda sad when something from like 8 years ago by numark is better than serato...

and yeah, i don't see the point of these people coming in here telling us to "be creative" and stop relying on technology.

it's a feature serato already has, has had for 4 years, we just want it to sound better. how is that something we should be attacked for, and ASSuming that we must suck at DJing?

By chance do you remember the product numer of that mixer, Proto J ?

That's something I'd like to look into getting....if it's attainable anymore, that is.

it was a little cdj. no idea. i borrowed it from a friend and it came in extra handy when i needed to change the key of something to make a theme mix work (2 tracks with similar vocals, worked perfectly together, just slightly out of key)...

^ I'll have to do a little digging then. ^

sounds cool.

My MK1 Pioneer CDJs do it better. My Numark TTXs keep up as well and you can even slide the key lock at different pitches (i.e. speed up to chipmunk, key lock, then tempo back down to -10% and have Lil Alvin and the eastside chipmunks.

As said above, an algorhythm that works in real time has been around for nearly 10 years now. Serato's new wife Ableton does it better.

Its not about technology making us better etc. Yes if I want to mix in key all night and turn off Key Lock and keep things in check I can. Do I like to experiment and shake things up and remix some 95bpm song at 120bpm on the fly? Yeah its fun. Would key lock potentially help in this instance? It could. With or without could give fun results, but I'd rather have a tool that works well as an option.

I'm not bitching about serato but I think a lot of us would like to request this get some attention as its one of the most used features of the program beyond cue points. And since Serato seems to me at least to be at the top of the game ( no FS/TR/VDJ stuff please), why can't they get on this?

Can you teach us please? you must be really good if you can come in here assuming you're better than us because we're requesting a feature that you don't use.

Looking forward to my first lesson.

The thing is in order for ableton to warp these tracks, you have to first load it , and warp it, make sure the markers are right , adjust it and so on.....thats takes some time...(granted sometimes it warps it perfect) but often it doesnt....my point is serato just plays music, its not an editing program.....

and ableton has different presets for warping such as (beats, vocals, complex, etc) and on the default setting "beats" it sounds similar to seratos key lock....... I think in order to do a good job (for every scenario) serato would have to have this kind of choice..... Which at this point seems like a tall order......

I have ableton so my workaround is just warping in ableton, and exporting the track.... Not ideal but it sounds better....

With that said +1 on improving the key lock alg

This KEY LOCK conversation has been going on for years now. Bottom line, if you don't like the key lock algorithm in ScratchLIVE then go use some other program. I'm pretty sure the programmers are working on it. Creating multiple threads about it in the WRONG AREA OF THE FORUM isn't gonna get it done any faster.

If you want the programmers to read another "Key Lock" thread, then post it here ---> serato.com

Not if they offer it as a purchasable plugin, much like VSL is now......



;)

This argument has already been made countless times, in fact, right here in this thread as well. Get over it, this discussion/request is staying put, right where it is.








unless a mod moves it, of course ;)

whats so creative about having a software fix it so anything works....creative would be comming up with a new way to make things work that noones thought of yet

It works both ways, if you don't want to see or talk about this kind of thing - stop reading and stop posting.

Also, you're behaving like a fucking child just cos you don't want to see threads started in the wrong forum.

Build a bridge bitch, and come back with those lessons we're after

not really since technically its in the wrong area of the forum

1.) Excuse me, but I am in the "DJ Discusions" area of the forum and the thread was titled "how can rane/serato build and announce SL4 and not..." If it was titled "Dear Serato, Please fix Key Lock" then I wouldn't have read or posted in it.

2.) I'm a grown ass man, If I wanna act like a fucking child that is my right :-P

3.) As far me building a bridge, I don't have to. Technology has done it for me. There's an app for that ----> serato.com

Last but not least...
"Can't we all just get along?" - Rodney King

ill be taking this, just pm me the details on where to send the royalties lol

LOL.....true!

There are a lot of passionate opinions in here, but no real reason to belittle one another though. I'm sure we can all agree to disagree without having to bring about ridicule.

Please don't intentionally try to get this thread locked. If it bothers you what is being said in here.....just leave, and free your mind of it :)

i'm gonna ignore that whole "creative" thing up there, cuz dude is reaching. there's no doubt that key lock and key manipulation leads to more creative mixing.

and as far as this being in the wrong forum, hey, i wanted to try something new. this thread has likely got the powers that be talking about this issue more than any thread we've had in the feature suggestions forum. i posted a thread about this in there in 2007 and there's been several threads since, and 4 years later, they haven't changed a damn thing.

its not the 1st thread about this in the dj discussion section either, it hold no more power than any other thread

well it's certainly the biggest so far (no rainbow)...

i always wondered why there was never an official serato/rane response with the key lock issue. they dont even seem to acknowledge it. to me, it seems like serato/rane are perfectly fine with how their key lock sounds.

my theory is that rane/serato are being held back because of a patent issue.

Naa, I think they care! I'm sure they want ScratchLIVE to be the best damn DVS out there, just as much, if not more, than we do.

As for the patent issue, perhaps, but I think this is also unlikely. They have Pitch n' Time that they could draw from. Surely they hold some of their own patents with that piece of software.

It probably does come down to resource allocation. They just need more personnel to tackle this particular (and many other overdue) issue/s. Unfortunately, they don't have the budget, nor staff, that Native Instruments or Ableton has...at least that's my theory.

But I see where they are coming from. They need to get more and more peeps to come over to ScratchLIVE....the only way to do that is to add flashy new features. Still, this is no excuse. At some point they are going to have to realize that they are doing this at the expense of their loyal, long time customers, and if they ignore us, we'll "eventually" seek a product that better suits our particular needs.

Personally, I have already purchased TSP, and hated it, but the new 2.0 software is looking more akin to ScratchLIVE....I would postulate that Native will eventually steal the best features from ScratchLIVE, adding them to their own useful features, making it harder & harder to remain loyal to Serato.

Serato, you betta' RECOGNIZE!!!

Anyone throwing down some Moombahton out there would really appreciate more advanced keylock! I have come across some great tracks pulled down to 108bpm. Its like finding buried treasure. To bad you cant do it live. ...Or even the old chopped and screwed (slowed and throwed.) Seams that DJ's of that genre could have benefited from a solid keylock. It would be nice to see SSL as top choice for DJ's of every genre and every new mixing technique. What do you think Serato?

i think i saw some of these same dudes on the Fender forum asking for a guitar that you can fret anywhere but will automatically play the right note... for the sake of "creativity".

don't mistake limitless opportunity for limitless creativity.

hope all y'all filled out the survey and put key lock as your top priority...

on second thought, don'y - gives me a better chance to win that SL4 :)

torq has independent pitch and tempo. pretty dope. not enough to get me to use torq, but it's a dope feature.

torq is owned by m-audio?

ow it made by the ppl who made protools isnt it.
now i know why it has better master tempo

Am reading this with interest because I am about to buy either a 68 or sl4 (can't decide)
I have also used Traktor Pro and other software and the sound of Traktor is often stated to be better than others. I'm not sure about how much of this is due to the compression/limiting in Traktor Pro. The audio test described above had some comments from listeners that Traktor sounded louder. If they had the limiter on, this might have allowed a higher volume, making it a confused comparison.

I've had a few problems with Traktor and that is why I use SSL. In particular I get a sort of out of key effect sometimes with Traktor. One track that sounds particularly strange is Mr White's You Rock Me. The piano is detuned anyway, but it warbles very audibly in Traktor. It might be something to do with where the beat grid lands itself. A bit like in Ableton if you were to select a bit of a track and enter a slightly different bpm for a short time. It could be compared to just slightly wobbling a vinyl record on a belt drive turntable with your finger. Don't know if anyone else has the same experience.

I would always rate SSL as first because it is light on CPU usage , is very stable and as long as you don't go too far off pitch it sounds good enough.

Having said all that I have to agree that SSL should look at their stretching to stay in front.

some of you may havent notice but Serato's keylock is waaay, faaar , moree ,suuuper,duuuper advance than pioneers master tempo ( that maybe give you something to be grateful about)



and yes bla bla bla i use vinyl F cdj's , hey try to be in my shoes where 99% of house clubs in indonesia dont provide turntables , and to carry around a pair of 1200"s (thats a lie i own a pair of ttx"s :P ) to air travel is just too much of a hassle

so thank you serato for the excellent keylock (which i only use when i pitch more than 1.60 %

That sounds awesome! There's been plenty of times where on the fly i'll think of two tracks that would make an awesome mix and really play well off of each other, but they're out of key. I'll turn keylock off and pitch them til they're in key with each other, but then the tempos are off... play some more to get them in time, but then the key is off again...rinse and repeat.... oh well, pick a different song, move on. independent key and tempo adjustments would be great, or even just being able to pitch a song, turn keylock on and then adjust tempo.
the other thing is pitching a song way up or way down like with moombahton. sounds like crap... or wanting to spice up a new song with parts from the song that was sampled in it. a current example would be snoop dogg's boom which sampled yazoo's situation. pitching the 120 something song down to 104 bpm sounds like crap... with something obvious like those two songs I'll just warp the sampled song in ableton ahead of time and have two versions in my library at different bpms. it'd be nice to be able to do stuff that's not so obvious on the fly though.
as far as the creativity vs. learn how to dj argument goes, key manipulation is like any other feature in a dvs... it can either be a tool or a crutch. those who know their shit will use it creatively and shine, the djs who suck will use it to make bland mixes and sound boring..... no one is asking for a new feature. it's already in the program, but it's very limited as far as it's use. All people want is to have serato make a current feature usable without seriously degrading audio quality.

bump.

i totally agree with you pronto, how can cheap ass torque be better at serato in the feature, ive just bought sl4 aswell, ive owned every sl to date, and am a bit miffed why this isnt being sorted, tim and time again im thinking i should have bought the new traktor scratch

Just got the SL4 and so far it is a HUGE disappointment. I thought I would be able to see computer two's (USB B) track info on computer one (USB A) and vice versa. Also thought I would be able to still use my TTM57SL's midi control buttons. What a waste of money!

.....what were you trying to accomplish??

Kind of hard to explain...Two DJ's, each on a their own laptop and two channel mixer. Making four decks total. (One mixer happens to be a TTM57SL.) Thought it would be cool to see each others track info and waveforms.

wow what ur wishing is some next level ish i dont think serato or traktor be able to make in short time ,unless your computer is somehow connected, data sharing like that maybe possible , SL4 is just and AUDIO INTERFACE

i just dont see why you would need to see the others track info and waveforms

DJ collaboration is constantly evolving. So will the technology... For now the SL4 works great with one PC, two mixers and four decks : )

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack the forum. I agree with Proto J. We need better key lock.

no doubt, if you guys have ever done a 2x4 set - it's super fun, and imagine being able to see not only what track the other DJ is about to drop, but where in the track time/waveform and you could anticipate breakdowns/build-ups or other tracks that would compliment it (adlib word play)etc.

just wondering what information did you see that led to the impression that you'd be able to see the other persons waveforms?

no doubt a cool idea...i think we've all had the same one...but i was never under the impression that this feature was available.

+1 on better Key Lock!

so... got an email about a new update...

still no key lock improvement?

geez...

Nope......at this stage, I don't think they'll ever work it out.