your best bet to first test this is to just hold the caps lock button down with 1 finger (Instead of using the pin to hold it). If you stick something in there to hold the button down and the button comes even a hair up, it will not be making contact therefore the keyboard will go into standby. At least if you use your finger, you know the caps is fully pressed down the whole time while waiting the 10-20 seconds to touch the trackpad to see if you get the usb light

You sir are 100% right. I did the test (without the pin) and I got the same result. No USB dropouts/ lights with the caps lock key held down. Dropouts all over the places without it held down.

I believe someone in the Apple store told me that the port in the back is the "shared" USB port. Also, if you want, you can let Apple know that this problem is NOT specific to SSL - I get the same audio dropouts with my ProTools M-Box. Its a hardware issue with the Mac. The same 10 second rule applies with my Mbox as well. The only difference is that the drop outs aren't specific to the trackpad, the dropouts happen if I touch any part of the keyboard after 10 seconds of not touching anything. But when I use my bluetooth mouse to control everything, it's fine.

See here under "Compatibility Alert": www.digidesign.com

Good work man. Let me know if you need any other info from me.

Tested and same results with my Macbook.

^^ Sorry. Macbook Core 2 Duo. Black one.

Nice BriChi.

thx nik

here ya go guys, I have posted a thread on apples discussion forum so we can all see if it goes anywhere:

discussions.apple.com

So much for using a MAC...huh?

***snicker****

***Boots up my Windows 3.1 machine and scoots outta this thread****

i would still recommend apple over windows anyday, even with a messed up usb port, anyway,

please stick to the topic so this issue can be resolved. If you want to make stupid ass windows vs apple comments there are plenty of other threads on this forum to do so. Thank you

Sorry BriChi, didn't mean to offend, I'm just an Windows head all day...but you have a legit problem, so I'll chill....

***goes to look for apple vs. windows threads****

No problem,,,thank you




Lol

Does changing the repeat rate and/or keyboard settings the keyboard and mouse preference pane change anything? by cranking it up, you might ask the system to poll more often.

no, i have it cranked already so the scrolling is quicker in ssl

I was thinking about purchasing an Apple Macbook for my SSL but am wary because of all these USB issues I have been seeing among Macbook and Macbook Pro users. I was wondering though, would the addition of the SSL power supply alleviate these USB dropout problems?

no, it has been tried, but it will be fixed soon, it's something in the keyboard/trackpad power layout which can be fixed via a software update

^^^ Not sure. Something like what?

BriChi: I read in this forum that someone said with BootCamp and Windows there are no dropouts. Is this what makes you think the problems can be fixed with a MacOS/Firmware upgrade? Or is there anything else?

Just curious because I ordered a MacBook Pro C2D last week...

There is probably a beta version of Leopard out for developers or not? Anyone tried tested it concerning dropouts?

(Hello Serato developers we haven't heard from you for a while concerning MacBook dropouts! ;-)

^^ Yeah. I believe there's a developer build out there of Leopard. Not very many though.

From what I have tested, Here is what I have come up with. If you read the first post in this thread i said that this issue has something to do with the keyboard and trackpad going to sleep after 10 seconds. So now when you go to touch the trackpad/keyboard, it has to turn back on which is taking power and data away from the SSL box because Apple has decided to use the usb bus for the keyboard and trackpad on the Macbooks which really sux. If they can just re-write the driver for the keyboard and trackpad and tell it not to go to sleep after 10 seconds, we would all be fine. I tested this theory above and as you can see, It makes perfect sense

From what I heard, Leopard right now does not have the usb dropouts but this is most likely because the laptop keyboard and trackpad are not written into the first beta yet, So if you install it on a Macbook, it shows up in the preferences as a regular keyboard and mouse, In other words, None of the volume function buttons work or the screen and keyboard brightness because that's not on a desktop keyboard, So the real test will not be until they are done with Leopard. I just hope they don't do this stupid 10 second timeout thing with the keyboard and trackpad in Leopard

I posted all this on Apples discussion forum too so if you guys go there and read it and add to it, Maybe it will get Apples attention more quickly.
discussions.apple.com

BriChi, thanks for your answer. (I added a post to your thread in the Apple discussions forum.)

No prob, thanks boogie down, hopefully apple will listen to us

^^^ Can't this be done in terminal somehow? I entered a command line in Terminal so that the the computer doesn't wake when I open it. Here it is: www.tuaw.com

I know there has to be a way to change the the keyboard/trackpad settings in Terminal so that it doesn't go to sleep after 10 seconds. If someone knew what the command line was, it'd probably be something like "trackpad_settings sleep = never". Something like that. I know next to nothing about Terminal. Just a guess.

... Just in case Apple doesn't write a new driver.

Any Terminal experts out there?

I would suspect that command line tools like pmset call functions from the Darwin API and I did not find anything related to configuring the keyboard/trackpad in the API reference. So I'm rather pessimistic that there is a terminal command or one could write a simple C++ program that solves the problem.

On the other hand I don't really have a clue about Apple Computers and my first Mac arrives this week...

Mayb we can get the SSL developers to chime in here? If they have a WWDC copy of Leopard and can verify this, that would add weight to the cause...

Just to let you know I spoke to an Apple Tech on Dec. 5, 2006 and sent him to this link (discussions.apple.com) because they haven't read this discussion yet. I waited on the phone while he read it to me. So he now knows that there is a usb drop out issue. I explained to him that it happens with all audio interfaces using the usb ports with all new macs.
This has been sent up to the engineers for them to look into this matter further and I should be hearing back from them in 5 days. I have a case number for this issue so hopefully we will get this resovled pretty quick.

depends on the driver and its options. it does sound tweakable to me.

If Apple's drivers are to blame, maybe a replacement is in order? www.versiontracker.com

Thanks for calling them and keeping us updated BriChi!

U R DA MAN, BriChi.

Great thanks BriChi!

Right on BriChi!

Nice work BriChi! Its really great to have it nailed down to something specific.

Just for the record, I received a brand new MacBook Pro C2D today and it has both known dropout problems:

(1) Dropout on left USB port when adjusting the screen brightness

(2) Dropout on right USB Port when touching the trackpad (after not touching it for 10-15 seconds)

Brichi,

Hey man thanks for letting apple know about the problem. Also, I was wondering if your buddy has any dropout issues with his Macbook? If so is it on one or both ports? It seems as though only the MBPs get this dual dropout issue. I am seriously thinkin about getting myself a C2D Macbook but am worried of it having trackpad/USB drop issues as I record AND use SSL which means both ports are in constant use. Does your friend experience any of these at the lowest buffer settings? Thanks again...

To get this clear.. this does *not* happen on a MB, only on a MBP? Ahhh sh!t... I need to cancel my order.

I have a Black MacBook C2D and the drop out does occur. Thanks BriChi!

No, it happens on Macbooks as well. I got dropouts when touching the trackpad on the rear (left) USB port, all is fine on the front (right) port. But I get dropouts on both ports when changing brightness, volume or taking a screenshot. But not like I would be doing that at a gig anyway.

I think it is going to happen on all future apple laptops if they keep the keyboadt/track pad on the same usb bus that we plug an audio device into, They really need to fix this is the OS.




No problem, I just wish I could have actually fixed it for everyone, but oh well, I got pretty far with it I think. My friend only experiences it on one of the ports with the buffer at 2, once he goes to 3 he is fine, I would not let this issue hold you back because it should be fixed through some sought of coding or update. I new I would have this problem and I still purchased one, I just keep the buffer at like 7 to play it safe and I have no issues at all.
Forum · Private Discussions

Is there an impact for MB users if we use the right USB port for the SSL box and the left one (the one prone to dropouts) for an external drive?

I don't think so, I haven't had any problems with my USB drive plugged into the left/bad port.

Cool! That's all I need to know. I guess that's my workaround for now then...

i've never noticed any issues with other peripherals on that port, but i don't use an external usb drive (i prefer firewire to keep the bus clean).

i use a usb led light in my 'bad' port and have never seen it dim (which is what i would expect it to do) when doing the things that make ssl dropout on that same port.

Perhaps the power requirement on the LED is less than what the SSL box requires?

No word from Apple I see.

Not yet, I got an email saying that they wanted me to install a program that will monitor what is actually happening and they can take it from there but they have not sent it to me yet

^^ Dammit! So it doesn't look like we'll have a resolution anytime soon.

so far the only thing is deleting the power mangement AppleUSBTopCase.kext file related to the keyboard but that disables the FN key, so it is kind of 1 or the other. But that is not Apple's answer, it's just something we came up with during troubleshooting

Now if only we can find someone on the forum that knows how to read and edit the contents of that .kext file, Maybe we would get somewhere before Apple figures it out

^^ Hmm... Will that mess up/effect anything else? Is it a "text" or "kext" file?

New post needed?

I think it is a *k*ernel *ext*ension and should be a binary file, probably compiled C/C++ code. If you had the source code and compiler you might be able to do something. I would wait till it's fixed by apple.

^^ Yeah. Good point. No one (outside of Apple) has the source code anyway I assume. Maybe a developer.

As boogie down said, It is a Kext file, The only other thing i see it messes up is some of the trackpad options like the 2 finger right click with the track pad (if you even use that), you can still ctrl click for right button.

^^ That AppleUSBTopCase.kext file isn't showing up in Spotlight for me. No results at all.

it won't show up in spotlight, it is located here:

/System/Library/Extensions/AppleUSBTopCase.kext

you should make a copy of it first before you delete it

So if I delete it and then put it back, all should be ok?

I am interested in buying a Macbook Pro also. Since this problem seems to be tied to USB power draw, does this affect scratch live units which have a AC adapter plugged in? With the adapter plugged in, the Scartchlive unit would be drawing power from the wall socket, and not from the Mac's USB buss.

-Otter

^^ Yep. Doesn't matter if the SL1 is plugged in or not. Same problem happens. It's connected to how the Macbook driver controls the trackpad actions, in this case, sleep.

Yes, delete it and play around with ssl and see how there are no more dropouts when you touch the keyboard/trackpad and then if you want you can just put the file back in the original spot and it will be back to normal. You have to reboot when you delete or put back the file in order for the change to take affect

Again, just make sure you backup the file somwhere

Maybe you can just unload the module by typing in the following command in the terminal window:

sudo kextunload /System/Library/Extensions/AppleUSBTopCase.kext


If it works it should say something like this:

kextunload: unload kext /System/Library/Extensions/AppleUSBTopCase.kext succeeded


The advantage would be that you don't have to remove the file and no need to reboot.

I have not tried this because I am not at home.

...or do a 'killall Finder' from a Terminal window (if you're savvy).

If this works then you could try to reload the driver with the command

sudo kextload /System/Library/Extensions/AppleUSBTopCase.kext

which should give something like:

kextload: /System/Library/Extensions/AppleUSBTopCase.kext loaded successfully


If both unloading and loading works then you could write a script or use this MacOS Automator thing to automatically unload the module when you start SSL and to reload it when you finish SSL.

I don't know if the limited keyboard functionality without the module would be a problem when using SSL though.

If everything works this would be a temporary workaround for USB dropouts on the right USB port until Apple provides a real fix.

when i do the sudo kextload /System/Library/Extensions/AppleUSBTopCase.kext

it says "failed"

Does anyone here know where the device file for the mouse is on OS X? On linux it's /dev/mouse, which is usually created as a symbolic link.

I need the FULL path to the device file.

OK, so loading seems to fail. But when you *un*loaded the module (kextunload), did it work?

This is the man-page for kextload:

developer.apple.com

You can try these two (single command line each):

(1) sudo kextunload /System/Library/Extensions/AppleUSBTopCase.kext/Contents/PlugIns/Apple
USBTrackpad.kext

(2) sudo kextload /System/Library/Extensions/AppleUSBTopCase.kext/Contents/PlugIns/Apple
USBTrackpad.kext

Boogie down, Sorry, i meant the UNload failed

I see. I can also give it a try when I'm at home...

They both work.. but complete shut down the trackpad ;)

I had a look at the opendarwin sources, looks like this is not available there. :-/ (Mac noob...me)

^^^^^same here, i gt the unload to work but it killed the trackpad, the other kext file (Keyeventdriver) kills the keyboard

What I dont understand is, when you have deleted the AppleUSBTopCase.kext, why did the keyboard and trackpad still work? But when you unload the kext below the devices dont work at all anymore?

FYI:

Apple emailed me today and asked me to do a series of tests and also run a apple logger program they sent me and i sent them back all the reports they needed, so someone over there is looking into this, I'll keep ya posted

BriChi... Deleting the AppleUSBTopCase.kext file and restarting worked. No drop outs whatsoever.

I'm gonna hook up my Pro Tools Mbox to the 2nd port now and let you know what the results are.

I was thinking the same thing, Maybe when you delete it and reboot, I creates a base keyboard and trackpad layout

Nice, sounds good, Just to confirm though, Now on you macbook keyboard, the FN key does not work along with the F1-F12 keys and if you go to your track pad properties half the options are missing right?

Oh snap! Yeah... No function keys work. Two finger scrolling doesn't work. Almost all of the trackpad properties aren't there.

^^ bump

BriChi, I dont know if that helps you, but what I've found out is that all you said about the trackpad going to sleep and then causing dropouts is true, if you leave it alone for about 10 seconds, *but* if you enable "click" with trackpad (thats how it is called in my german osx) in eh.. system settings -> trackpad, it will click *everytime* you actually click with the trackpad (not using the button). No dropout if you just move the mousepointer with the trackpad, *only* when you *click*.

Maybe that helps narrowing it down a little.

On mine, whether or not i have "Click" on, once i touch the trackpad after 10 seconds, i get the dropout. With the buffer at 2 anyway

So with the click on, you dont get always a dropout regardsless within those 10 seconds or not? You must "click" (by touching the trackpad), not just move the cursor.

either way, no matter what settings i try, or click, after 10 seconds, i get the dropout

if the trackpad just the problem?

Have you tried removing just the AppleUSBTrackpad from inside the plugins folder inside ...TopCase kext?

no, its the keyboard and mouse and i've been trying to remove each file to see the effect, no matter what i do something else is effected by it.

Same here. I tried enabling click with the trackpad. That didn't help.

NO!

It should not help. It makes things worse! I just posted this to narrow things down. After enabling "click" it will *always* drop out, when you click with the trackpad (not with the trackpad button). Can anyone confirm/disconfirm?

LOL, Wow Nik39, are you mad. Now it makes sense, your explanation wasn't exactly crystal clear. I'll check this out when I get home later

Believe me, my german is much better than my english :)

^^ LOL!

I got my MacBook Pro C2D few days ago and tested it with SSL, no dropout was found, here is my set up:

- C2D 2.0G
- 1Gig Ram (512Mb on 1st 2 days, no dropout)
- SSL connects to right side (the side of Firewire port)
- USB HD connects to left side
- Screen saver turns off
- USB buffer sets to 2ms (I've tried 1ms for 1st 2 days, no dropout was found but the yellow USB sign goes on)

I think it has been established that on a MacBook Pro, if the SSL box is plugged into the left USB port, then there would be no dropouts.

Respectively, on a MacBook, using the front most USB port does not yield USB dropouts either.

Are you sure you are not mixing the left and the right side? ;)

I am getting dropouts when connecting SSL to the right side, and my MBP is a few days old too.

Agree with nik39, mine is one week old and I have both known dropout probs.

Also your configuration seems unsual... You say you have 2.0 GHz and the laptop came with 512 MB installed. Isn't that the default config for the old MBP (not C2D). The lowest spec MBP C2D is 2.16 GHz and 1 GB I think...

You're sure you got a new MacBook Pro C2D?

But even then it's strange that you don't get dropouts.

Initially, I did not read this forum and know the dropout matter on 1st day to test with MBP+SSL. Yup, I did mixing for 2 hours on the 1st day with 512Mb RAM.

Mine was just the fade out intel base model with 40% discount. MBP 2.0GHz C2D, 512Mb DDR2 667 RAM. So now the entery model is 2.13GHz C2D with 1gig RAM.

Guys, after reading all the threads and seriously tested with my set up last night. I only found the USB sign goes on, with USB buffer on 1Ms. No dropout found on 2Ms!!!! I will try as DJ-Apocalypse mentioned using the left USB port tonite. ^_^

Anything noteworthy happened since then? Just curious...

not yet, I just sent a second set of tests to them, Still waiting. The Apple support certainly is not as fast as SSL's. :-)

I wouldn't expect a resolution from Apple until they fix the problem... let's hope 10.4.9.

Out of topic. Found out on Apple hot news www.apple.com

I wonder, does he tell Apple about USB drop out?

I posted the following in this www.scratchlive.net thread but I think it rather belongs here...

Has anyone tested this:
Go into the preferences and check the box that disables the trackpad when using a USB mouse. If a USB mouse is used does this solve any problems? It may be a little bit more difficult to use, but I haven't seen if anyone has tried this or not.

i have been using my MBP with it disabled when mouse is plugged in...granted i don't physically run my finger all over the track pad in a night or work but i dj every thurs fri sat and in the beginning of the week too and must run my hand over it or touch it a couple times in a night and NO drop outs
hope it helps

Even if I have a mouse plugged in and disabling the trackpad, I still get the dropouts when I touch it.

Apple called and left me a message today. They claim that this is a Serato issue and the dropouts are being caused by the fact that Serato/Rane are using very old usb1 hardware instead of up to date usb2. I then returned the call and left a message saying that that is total bullshit because if that was the case then it would happen on all ports not just 1 plus it would have happened on my powerbook also. The Macbook line is the only line that has this issue. I will post again when they call back. Just figured I would keep you informed

That is total crap. I can't beleive that they even said that.

BriChi, I thought you said that other audio interfaces and applications had this issue as well. Are they using USB1 interface as well?

I'm not sure if they are also usb 1 or 2 but here is the link i have to Pro tools support showing that it is not recommended to use the 1 port

www.digidesign.com

and here is another apple discussion link regarding the macbook and a different usb interface

discussions.apple.com

^^ Yeah... I think I mentioned to you that it was a problem with ProTools as well. Apple is bullsh*tting man. Seriously... you should post the number Apple and let ALL OF US call them everyday until they show the proper attention to the issue.

i hope the protools dongle is working on the right usb port.. otherwise is simply can't be used on any mac laptops with external soundcard.....

leopard is out now.. at least a pre version for developers

it*

Hey guys,,,,here is the # to the Apple support line, I think the more people that call and bother them the better we may be

18002752273

My case # if you want to mention it is 71734810

Keep posting results here so we can follow. Thanks

I'd like to hear with any of the Serato developers if 10.4.9 solves this problem...

What about a SSL developer calls apple and reports that problem (pretending he's just a customer?). I guess he can discuss the problem way better with the technicians than we can. Especially the "it's all SSL's fault" thing.

lol i'd pay for listening to a copy of that call

lol,,,,me too

:)

I actually sent a private message to Zach and Sam and in it I have suggested that maybe they should open a case with them. In another thread on the forum what one of the Serato guys (forgot who) mentioned that they did have a call in to Apple about it but that's all it said i think. I think maybe they should press this issue harder being that Appple is now blaming Serato for this. Below is part of what i put in the PM to Zach and Sam.

Didnt the Serato guys say that they have an issue open already? And that they even raised the priority?

I remember reading that they called apple, i just didn't remember the details and couldn't find the thread

*You* should be able to find the thread ;)

This is actually rather f*cked up considering how many DJ's around the world inadvertently advertise Apple computer's by using them every day in front of thousands of people.

Limelight,,,,Did you happen to call them yet, The more people that call the further we'll get, I posted the number a couple of posts up.

Nah BriChi... Best believe I'm calling them tomorrow though. I'll post a follow up.

Also... There's a problem after replacing the topcasefile. I'm getting an error message about the Topcasefile.... I've put it back where it was, verified permission and restarted. My function keys aren't working at ALL now. Two finger scrolling works though.

Maybe there is something corrupt with the topcase file. Is it this exact one "AppleUSBTopCase.kext ", If that's it, PM me your email address and i'll send ya mine to overwrite yours. That should work.

^^^ Thanks bro. I just reset the PMU and all is fine.

No problem, Glad ya got it

Ok... Here's the deal.

I called Apple and gave them BriChi's case number. The support dude read through those notes and came back to the phone. I basically explained the USB port problem to him. We basically came to the same conclusion that the USB port is being overloaded - causing drop out's (no sh*t, Sherlock). He said that the support person that is handing the case came to the conclusion that it's a problem with the SERATO box. He said that the computer is routing the USB signal through the same bus because SSL uses USB 1.0 and if it was a 2.0 signal, it'd go through a different bus (??). I explained to him that SSL isn't the only product that has the drop out issue (Digidesign, etc).

He asked me to try using a USB 2.0 booster with SSL on the 2nd port and that should fix the problem. He said if that doesn't work, he'd connect me directly with an Apple engineer when I call back.

So... I guess I'm gonna get a USB booster and see if that helps anything.

it doesn't because the second usb port does not have this problem, only the one that's linked to the trackpad/keyboard

the whole usb1 thing is bullshit, if that was true we would have surges on both usb ports, Ask him how come it only happens when we touch the trackpad but everything is fine if we switch to the other usb port

^^ That's EXACTLY what I said. My words were, "I don't think it's coincidense that it only happens on this port and not the other. Why is Apple putting this on the software developer?" Then he suggested the booster thing.

Whats a "USB 2.0 booster"?

^^ No clue man. He said "most computer stores will know what it is."

AND,,,,,if they think it's a usb 2 issue, how come this never happened on anyones powerbooks which are also usb2

I'm curious on what a Serato guy has to say about this answer, Feel free to chime in guys. :-)

It might be 1st level support, if lucky 2nd level support. Thats how they deal with it. You gotta keep in mind, they have their tech knowledgebase, and thats it. Some of the people on the phone have no clues about computers. They know how to enter some keywords into their internal knowledgebase to get a general and quick response. Not to bash the support guys on the phone, but thats reality.

Just sad Apple is not raising the priority for this bug and that they aint looking into it.

maybe he means that this is a USB 2.0 problem on that specific port. Is this booster something like this? www.amazon.com
we could make a charity event for your booster ^^

Yeah... Nik is right. This dude told me he was in "Tier 1" support.

Also... Apple doesn't give a sh*t about us. Steve Jobs just got done uneiling the iPhone. It's the most amazing device I've ever seen in my life. My goodness.

i've been watching it,,,it looks sick

i've never heard of a usb booster either... maybe he means powered usb hub? at any rate, I believe someone has already tried that... which failed.

have to echo what nik said... apple support deals with a lot of morons... when they encounter someone more technical they don't know what to do.

tell the apple guys that if it were a usb1 problem, why is it gone when you run windows on your macbook pro? he can't tell you windows uses another, third, magic route without any problems...

simply makes no sense...

It seems that the Apple support is either incompetent and talking bulls**t because they just don't know better or they decided that the bug is not important enough for spending their resources to fix it and they are now trying to get rid of the people complaining by saying it's Serato's fault.

Obviously the USB 2.0 ports of the MacBook (Pro) should be fully backward-compatible with USB 1.0 and 1.1.

Even the Apple itself says that the USB ports of the MacBook Pro are compatible with USB 1.1 (full-speed USB) which the Serato Box uses:

docs.info.apple.com

BUT... when you connecta usb 1.1 device to a usb 2.0 buss.. it makes everything else onthe USB 2.0 bus only able to use 1.1 speeds. So if the keyboard and other devices are on the same buss as the usb port serato is on then it causes problems... thats why the other usb port will work better on some computer configs... At least thats the way itws explained to me when i took classes on it.

I really believe that too..maybe when you use windows the keyboard doesn't go to sleep on that port,so there's no dropout.
But shouldn't be that difficult to implent an energy saving option,that allows to disable it on the next update..
problem is the dudes on the technical line mostly expect people who aren't able to find the on/off button and not some pissed serato-DJs which complain about beeing not able to set the buffer to 2 on one of the ports to make the cuts even more precise^^

well... like on my powerbook.. the keyboard/track pad has it own USB buss then each usp port on each side has it own buss so I dont have this issue.. i think on the macbooks the keyboard/mouse must share a usb buss with one/both od the usb ports.

they do, you can see it in the system profiler. It shows the trackpad/keyboard on the same port as the sl1 when you plug into one of the ports

So here we are at the point to ask why rane didn't use Firewire or at least USB 2.0^^
for me it looks like the dude at apple really was right when saying this is a USB 1.1.problem..or am I wrong?

well there is nothing wrong with using 1.1...i too wish that SSL was at least 2.0.. but then again.. my SSL had no issues on my powerbook.. but i think its all in the way that the internals of the powerbook is set up... so no.. its not SSL's falt b/c when the sl1 box came out 2.0 was not standard on all computers.

The problem is not the hardware... it's Apple's drivers.


That's not entirely true depending on the device and what and what controllers are used. Read the wiki for more info: en.wikipedia.org

I know I also had a powerbook before and my macbook hasn't even arrived..
and to be honest I really don't care too much for not beeing able to use one of my ports with buffer setting 2,
but as this problem seems to affect other hardware devices as well I'm pretty sure they'll solve it.
I wonder why they put the trackpad/keyboard to sleep anyways..
if the problem didn't occur on MBP too I'd say this is the price to pay for a consumer-notebook

afaik it happens on both macbook and mackbook pro.

yes it does,,,,,you are right spinthis

I can confirm SpinThis doubts, this is not correct.

When you use the USB port that supposedly works you still have dropouts when adjusting the screen brightness.

ok that sucks..but I guess I don't even care much about it,as I'm not going to adjust it while playing in a club..
It's more that I feel like BriChi that if I pay that much for a notebook I expect it to work properly and not worse than my old powerbook..
by the way does the possibility exist that it just runs flawless without any dropouts??

I mean I'll get my macbook within this week and I still hope everythings just fine

Alright, Here's another update. I just called Apple again and spoke to someone else who is escalating this problem for me. I am emailing him a link to a 9 minute video i just made going step by step in the troubleshooting i have done as far as switching ports, deleting the .kext file, etc... I also attached an mp3 file noting the exact time that i touch the trackpad so they can hear the audible glitch. I really went into detail to them to prove out that this is an OSX issue and not serato. Hopefully i'll get a good answer this time. I can't possibly give them any more info than i have so we'll see what happens.

To the Serato developers. The gentleman i was speaking with had mentioned that there was a developers phone # and link to go to to report bugs like this with software. I know you already reported it but i figured I would mention it. He said the link was:
developer.apple.com

I'm trying guys,,,,hopefully I'll get a good answer for you soon

^^ Thanks BriChi. Much appreciated bro.

BriChi, thanks for putting in so much work. I sent the person I talked with my logger files and they finally got back to me with the same crap they told you. USB2.0 blah blah blah... The video you made should be a nice touch though...

... and Serato!!! we need your help on this guys. Keep bugging them!

BriChi Thanks man You get the gold star

No problem guys, I'm just trying to help as much as possible so this problem can be resolved for a lot of people.

BriChi, i've read pretty much this whole thing and you're the man! I'm so happy that someone who understands this stuff is so determined to figure this thing out. But what I don't get is how DJ AM and guys like that don't have this problem...or do they? I'm about to have some of my first gigs in a few weeks (that's why i'm trying to figure this out ASAP) and I just can't imagine it dropping out in the middle of a gig, especially if it was someone so big like DJ AM, getting paid like 25 grand a show. Do they know something we don't?

^^ If they're using the same computer, they have the same problems. Guaranteed. Big time dudes most likely are just using the good USB port.

Exactly, I'm far from a big time dude but everytime I play live, I use the good port and have no problems at all, It seems to be only on 1 of the 2 ports. On my Macbook the good port is the one closest to me and on my macbook pro the good port is on the right side. You can usually tell which port will be the bad one by looking in the system profiler of OSX with the SL1 plugged in, If it shows that the sl1 is on the same bus as the trackpad/keyboard, You most likely will have problems

BMP right side? You mean watching the display and its on the right? My good port is on the left side!

Yeah,,,,my bad. it is my left port that is the good one. I've been doing so much testing with this stuff I forgot what is my left and right. lol

I'm surprised more pro customers aren't on their case about this yet... especially Digi. (Then again, Digi is so slow to respond to OS changes they're prob still stuck on 10.3.8.)

I was thinking the same thing, Digi and M-Audio are big and they seemed to have identified the problem (since they discuss it on their website), but still... nothing?

I, for one, am really glad that Serato did not chose to use Firewire as the interface for the SL-1 box.

there is nothing wrong with using Firewire.... just USB is availible on more computer where firewire is not.... I just wish they had used USB 2.0

^^ Yeah. Or like some ext HD's make it so you can use either firewire or USB 2.0.

The protools interface is USB2 afaik, so the whole USB2 excuse is Bs (as has been pointed out by others with far more tech-knowledge than me).

I am impressed by how many of you are really pouring so much time into this issue and it is great being a part of a community like this.

BriChi, you get my vote for
[b]BEST OF 2006:
Problem solver superhero[/b]

/\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\
That should be:

BriChi, you get my vote for
BEST OF 2006:
Problem solver superhero

OK so real quick, I know it's probably somewhere in the above million words, but how can I find my "good port"? I've just read so much and talked to so many people that I don't know what the heck to do now. Thanks guys

Just plug the SL1 into each port, load a track in SSL and play it, wait about ten seconds and then touch the trackpad. If you get a dropout, then it's the bad one. If not, it's the good one.

Make sure the buffer is on 2 also.

how do you change the buffer setting?

Can we get an update from the serato guys? I mean I only see one post from a mod or rane workers, what have you been working on with apple, what responses have they given you.

Go into the setup screen in ssl and drag the buffer all the way to the left then click apply

Yes, what is the status? Rane/Serato please let us know!

does anyonw know if downgrading to an older version of OSX could help?

that's "anyone"

and thanks BriChi

No problem, It's hard to tru that because only the recent versions of osx work on the Intel Macs

tru=test

This thread has been dead for a little while, has there been any updates from apple. I know their stance is its Serato's fault. Rane have you been able to develop a solution within scratchlive that prepares a script that disables sleep or etc within your own software to replicate the program. This is not an issue users can fix, I understand there is a ticket with apple but that does not guarantee that the problem will be fixed. Can you please update us on the status. Thank You.

Why has NO ONE from Serato or Rane posted anything here? Nada. Zilch. Zero.

Didnt you read the ****BREAKING NEWS****

Serato Moderators have been banned from their own forum!!

;)

LOL!

Word.

Maybe it's easier for apple to hack this board and ban Serato than fix the usb port ;)

Well, what would you like them to say? It's not a SSL problem per se, it happens on all USB audio devices. It's an Apple problem and needs to be corrected by Apple, not Rane or Serato. But as a matter of fact, Serato has somewhat addressed the issue with 1.7

They could start by saying "We've contacted Apple (since they referred all of you back to us) and this is what we told them."

That'd be a good starting point.

And that dropout fix doesn't help on the 2nd port.

From Known Issues...



Satisfied?



True, but it's the starting point.

And I'm not trying to bust your balls man, but honestly, I don't know what more we should "expect" to be done from Rane/Serato about the issue.

Well, if they are really nice I would expect them to say something like:

* According to our investigations the technical reason for the dropouts is [insert details here]

* The best solution for the problem would be [insert details here]

* We are working with Apple on this issue and this has happened to far: [insert details here]



From what I understood 1.7 fixes a different dropout problem, not the one this thread is about.

Thats also what I read from the release notes. The USB dropout "fix" is not supposed to fix this problem we are talking about in this thread.

Yeah. What Martin said. Especially given the information that BriChi has spent his valuable time gathering, testing and researching. More than anything it doesn't seem like a high priority. Hell, they're gonna be previewing features for a 1.8 version at NAMM! Can we get on for a fix for ALL of the problems with 1.5< first?

I NEED both of my ports to work.

guys, we are as frustrated as you are. We have a meeting with Apple at NAMM, and it's top of our list of things to sort out.

Cool, great to know Sam. Please show them the problem if you happen to have a Macbook or MBP there with you.

Cool, thanks Sam

That would be nice thanks!

PLEASE make some progress on this Serato folks. This whole USB issue has got me panicked like a white girl with a pimple on prom night.

thanks Sam, that's all i wanted to hear ;) tell them, their hardware is working better with windows than with Mac OS X (at least i have no problem with my right usb port when i use boot camp, see my post quotend by BriChi) and you will tell this bill gates and michael dell if they don't fix it.

Kick their asses ;)

Yeah, kick them in the nuts, Tell them i'm still waiting for a call back. lol

That's all I wanted to hear too. Tell them to give you a copy of OS 10.5 too, then mail it to DJ Limelight. You got my address!

Tell them there's a bunch of angry DJs waiting to raid the Apple booth and you don't know how much longer you can hold them back!

^^ True dat.

sounds good,maybe you should connect with manufacturers of other non-working devices and form a kind of..posse..to persuade em

^^ Good idea. Sam: "Hey M-Audio how about hitting the Apple booth together b/c of this dropout issue? And btw congrats to your new controller it really looks awesome!"

So hmm, this problem doesn't affect the new macbooks/black macbooks with the core 2 duo processors? Because for some reason I can't seem to reproduce these problems...

nate, is your buffer at 2?

yeah Nate, put your buffer at 2 and double check in the system profiler that you are in the same usb bus as the trackpad/keyboard, It's been reproduceable on every Macbook I touched

Open ssl with the buffer at 2, wait about 15 seconds and touch the trackpad or keyboard, the usb light will come on in ssl, if not, try the other port

excellent... hopefully they can take care of this in 10.4.9.

right on fellow DJ's.

as well as Rane Team.

keep this thread alive!

RESOLVE THE ISSUE!! PLEASE!

I think the answer is near. Thanks for going the extra mile BriChi. I love this macbook with 1 working port... with 2 working ports... it'll be the best computer available to run ssl with as far as im concerned.

for now my resolution, or workaround has been to use a powered usb hub.in ableton live my soundcard and trigger finger are now visible, in torq and serato i have not had this issue again,dropouts. but its a pain in the ass cause it means hauling around yet another piece of gear. but for now it means i can play out safely with my macbook.

UPDATE:

Well, Apple just called me with another BS answer, Pretty much they said that it is still being investigated but for now as a workaround I can run ssl on the other usb port, I then laughed and said no shit, we are all already doing that. He also suggested raising the cache, which i said does not help. So, I guess this is going to be a never ending battle. Hopefully Sam and the other Serato/Rane guys get somewhere with Apple at NAMM because it looks like they don't want to listen to the average user, Maybe they will listen to the Serato developers though. I think 10.4.9 is coming out soon, Maybe they'll be something in that, I doubt it though.

Hi fellas,
I'm watching these threads for a while now. I also have the same problems with USB-dropouts on my MacBook 1,83 GHz 512 MB-RAM 80GB HDD OS X 10.4.8. The only difference is, that I'm having these dropouts on both ports. The port close to the screen drops out when I touch the trackpad after 10 sec. or so, same prolem that all of us have. But the other port is a little mystery to me. Three days ago I switched my MacBook on, ( that means it was off before, not in Standby ), I logged in and after hitting Return I holded the left Shift Button, so that OS X doesn't load to much unneccesary stuff ( Also BT, Wi-Fi, etc. off ). I connected the SL1 to the port away from the screen, and my 80GB external USB-powered HDD to the port close to the screen. Next I fired up ScratchLive and loaded one track on each turntable. Normaly ScratchLive would freak out in the first 10 or so seconds, I mean USB light goes on, Audio is stuttering and glitching and everything is just a mess. After that usual startup problems that I have evarytime I start Scratch Live , everything works fine, until after 1 hour (sometimes more sometimes less), the whole stuttering and dropout problem appears when I load a track onto on turntable.

But this time everything was perfect, no dropouts, no lights, nothing. I even loaded a DVD that played with no problems. SL1 was fine, and the the DVD was playing in the background. There was no problem for 4 hours, and I really thought the problem was gone.
But the day after everything was as usual, I had USB-dropouts from the first moment, and the reappeared during playtime.

I also tried SL 1.7 yesterday, but there was no cure for that frustrating problem. I'm having this problem

I really don't want to be offensive, but either Apple or Serato have to solve this problem soon.

So I have a little idea. So the next question goes out to you, my fellow DJs.
What about making this issue more public, and give it to digg.com . I'm sure there will be much more response from Apple and Searato, when this get's out to the great wide public.
So drop me a message if you agree with me. And let's get Apple and Serato a little bit scared.
I think that would be fair, beacause I'm also scared everytime I turn my SL1 and MacBook on.

So, once again let's get this USB-dropout problem dugg, perhaps this will help Apple to get their asses up.

( Oh , by the way. I love my MacBook and I would never ever want something else. So Apple, please, return that love to your customers.)

on my macbook (not pro) both usb ports are involved! but only since 1.7.x!

1.6.3 was running perfect on both ports!

whats the answer to this riddle???

What's the usb buffer at? I noticed in mine that if i start raising the usb buffer one # at a time and testing it at each one, it goes away. I think mine stops at about 7, Not sure though, I'm not home to check right now. I also have the problem with the function keys causing the usb light to come on too on the other port but it never bothered me because I don't use the brightness controls or any of that during a live performance plus when the usb light comes on, I don't hear it in the audio. I only hear an audio hiccup on the other port when I hit the keyboard ot trackpad after 10 seconds with the buffer at 2

I tried every buffersize... no chance! normaly I spin at 5

BriChi and company: the more people who report this as a bug, the faster it will get fixed. Have you used Apple's form?

bugreport.apple.com

I'd file a report but I don't have an Intel Mac need to reported the problem correctly.

I haven't done the bug report thing, Just many phone calls and case #'s to support which is getting me nowhere. I think I'll do the bug report tonight.

LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

I kind of laughed at that too, Believe me, A couple of us bitching to Apple and Serato about this is not going to scare them in any way, Maybe it will just make them notice the problems quicker

OK, I'm also more hoping than believing. But the whole USB-MacBook problem is here since day one of the MacBooks, and I'm sure all of you are really really pissed off with it as I am. Serato says the problem is with Apple and their MacBooks, Apple says its Serato's problem to fix it. What happened till now, nothing.

But forget this Apple-digg-bitchin' for a moment.

I tried 1.7 again today, and it was as usual at the beginning. SL1 in right ( or away ) port, and dropouts for the first 10-20 seconds of playtime. After that it worked realy nice for about 3 hours until I stopped spinning. I didn't have one dropout during the whole playtime, even if I loaded one track after another to the table that doesn't play.
Is anyone of you having the same problems that SL1 sometimes works realy nice, and the next time it's just freakin' out every few minutes?
I always do the logout-login-hold Shift, before I start ScratchLive, so I can't figure out how to solve that problem.

Where has this been documented ?

The first encounter with Apple that I had they said that this is Serato's problem because the interface is usb 1 and the Macbook's do not support it properly

^^^ In that case ALL USB 1.1 devices should be affected ... sounds to me like a miscalculation by Apple.

That's exactly what I told them, I said that if it was a usb 1 issue than it should be consistantly happening on both ports and it does not (For me), just the one. The support right now from Apple sucks, I'm not happy with the answers at all

They are affected.

And to think I was about to drop 27 Benjamins on a 17" Core 2 ......

Brichi have you tried asking to talk to 2nd or 3rd tier support? The assholes who pick up the phone basically read from a script.

did everyone following this thread forget that 1 of the ports does work flawless for serato?

For that amount of cheese all ports better be working. The gadget is 'broken'.
But seriously what if I want to plug in another peripheral that is USB 1.1 to use with serato ?

We might want to a get a discussion brewing on Apple's CoreAudio discussion list as well. [ lists.apple.com ]. There's a few Apple engineers in charge of audio on there who frequent the list and answer questions...

You're right, for the amount of money i spent (1300 on macbook and 2200 on macbook pro) It should work perfect and that's why I am bitching to Apple but, I do not regret the purchase. I love Apple computers over pc's and this issue doesn't affect my performance. I'm more trying to work it out because I know the issue is there. I'm sure it will be fixed soon if we and Serato employees stay on them. It still wouldn't stop me from buying another Mac. I don't think I would ever have a time where I need to plug in another usb1 device while using ssl, All my other devices are usb2 and firewire. I have an older usb1 multichannel sound card that works fine in that port so it just seems like the SL1 is just more sensitive to the issue






I tried, they just kept telling me the same crap. I'm gonna make 1 more phone call probably next week and see if I can bust some more balls. I really want to hear what Serato has to say. They said earlier that they had a meeting with Apple at Namm to discuss this but they have not posted anything yet.

I just wish someone knew how to either write a terminal script that probes the trackpad or keyboard once every like 8 seconds which would not allow them to go into a standby mode or read what is in the AppleUSBTopCase.kext file so we can see if there is a timeout for the keyboard and trackpad that we can edit

Hey Spinthis, I've been browsing around that site and found this lists.apple.com. I plan on adding something to this site hopefully tonight. What the apple usb team says is interesting but I do not fully understand it

No it doesn't. As I mentioned earlier the "good" port ( on my MacBook white ) which is placed away from the screen, always does this stuttering for 10-20 sec. when I start ScratchLive. After that my SL1 works for about an hour and then sometimes I get dropouts when I load new tracks to one table. Again, this isn't always, but the fact that it doesn't apear frequently makes me even more confused.
The other port, close to the screen, has the same problems that all MacBooks have ( dropout when touching trackpad).
And, yep! I also really want to know what Serato and Apple decided to do after that meeting at NAMM.

if you search for serato, Steve West has posted a few times...

yeah, but has he posted about it since Namm?

I need some help here.

I'm not realy sure, but i think Apple already has done something about the fact that the keybord/trackpad shares the same USB-bus with the "bad" USB-port. I checked my USB setup with the Syystem Profiler a few moments ago, and all devices that I connect to that bad port, now share the same bus with the iSight cam. I can't remember exactly, but I think before the last Apple-update I did ( that Quicktime-security update that Apple came up with a few days ago ), the devices connected to the bad port shared the keybord/trackpad bus. Can someone check that for me please. But sadly, I still get dropouts when I touch the trackpad.

Has anyone of you tried to look what happens under Windows XP Hardware setup, I mean how are all that USB devices ( iSight, trackpad, remote, etc. ) connected with the USB-Bus, and where does the SL1 appear when it connected to which port.

Will check that tommorow, it's getting really late here in Europe now.

The hardware is not the problem... it's Apple's drivers.

I just did the update but the system profiler did not change, the SL1 is still on the same bus as the keyboard

Exactly, one perfect way to prove this is if you install WinXP on the Macbook, you have no issues with the usb ports

BriChi, did you do the update on your MacBook or your MacBook Pro?

Both

Ahhhh, I don't get! Sorry, but I really can't underatnd this. Anyway, I'm going to bed now, I've had enough for today.

LOL, Hopefully you won't have nightmares about Apple.

Oh, I guess it was a really late yesterday. Sorry for the misspellings on the last post. Anyway I'm on way home now, ready to do some SL1-MacBook-USB testing. I'm also gonna test XP USB bus, cause I really want to know how the USB devices are connected together in XP, maybe there are some differences between XP and OS X.

Cool, Test away easo, Keep us informed of any progress. If you have any ?'s let me know so you don't have to waste your time doing a test that I might have already done. Also, I don't know if you caught it above but i found if you remove the following file: (back it up first) AppleUSBTopCase.kext located here:

/System/Library/Extensions/AppleUSBTopCase.kext

The usb issues go away but you lose some functions of the kbd. So maybe you can mess with the file.

So I'm home now, thanks BriChi for the motivation, let's kick some Apple Butts. By the way, I don't know if this belongs here, but I've got something that will put the smile back to our faces.

Watchwww.youtube.com

And if any Apple employees might come by to this forum, please Apple return some love to addicted customers.

Well i tried this and got nowhere at all. I emailed the whole issue to them and here is the response i got, I also replied back to it and got another BS answer:

FROM APPLE:

Brian,
Have you tried using the usb ports on the left side of the computer? I believe these are on a separate bus and won't suffer from those problems.
-Michael

MY RSPONSE:

Yes, the left port for me is fine but does not solve the problem on the right port. There are times when I setup in studios where I really need to use the right port and it's imbarrasing going into recording studios telling people, Oh yeah, I purchased a $2300 laptop for audio but I can only plug my audio sound card into 1 specific port, the other one does not work properly. Plus this happens with the Digidesign box which I sometimes need to use at the same time as the Serato box, But I can't because whichever box is plugged into the right port will not work properly. Also, I installed WinXP under boot camp and have no issues at all running both usb ports so it obviously has to have something to do with something written in OSX and i really do not want to have to run WinXp everytime i need to use the right port. There have been several complaints put into Apple's supports line for this but haven't received a good answer so I was hoping you can do your bes t to try and resolve this issue for us. As you can see from the links I posted below, there are major audio companies that are posting on there site to beware of buying Macbook's because of this known issue which I feel is really bad for Apple's reputation. Thank you for your quick response and any help you can be

APPLE'S LAST EMAIL:

Brian,


Unfortunately, I have no further information to pass on. If I do run across a workaround or any other information, I'll certainly let you know.


-michael

What a little bitch... F**k you Apple!

No i dont see that as being a little bitch.... he said try using the other port....
then said they have no further info about it.. that can mean alot of things.. they might be fixing it in the 10.4.9 comming out soon.. who knows.. and think about it this way.. the peeps complainingabout it are audio peeps.. ok... so what about the other millons of peeps who like to have the loger batter life so they can watch there movies sitting in first class on the planes... so they have to find a way to fix this without loosing any better life for those who dont care about this issue. Maybethey might put a setting the the energy saver to allot the keyboard to not go to sleep....

True, if you check this out, It shows there being a usb fix but who knows what the fix is.

www.macrumors.com

That response from Apple is very Stanton/NI .....

NOT GOOD !!!!! by any standards considering the kind of cash folks are parting with for Apple products.

I couldn't find your thread.. I'd like to see what you posted and add to it...

I hope you mentioned how we can prove it's a driver issue and not a hardware one... I don't think I would have started complaining in your followup though... I think if I was an Apple engineer I would have replied the same way... blah blah blah about Apple support, how I paid this much, it should work, etc... etc. That's irrelevant. If you want to get a good response you need to to start speaking more their language... you posted on a developer list, not on a user support list.

Hello Everyone,

This forum has been a very interesting read because I am planning on getting Serato with a MacBook. I have been daydreaming about this for weeks, thinking it would work perfectly as I've heard Macs are pretty sensitive to audio-freaks out there.

However I am not so sure I will even buy Serato anymore. Here is the reason why I say this. Right now, sitting next to one of my turntables is the TTM 57SL that a trusting friend is letting me borrow. I work with all kinds of audio as I produce as well. Currently on my desktop computer are two sound cards, one of which is hooked up via USB 2.0, and the other via PCI Slot. I have 2 GIGS of RAM and sport an AMD 4400+ processor. I would like to specifically point out, when I run my USB 2.0 M-Audio Mobile Pre sound card in Cubase with my CPU clocking at 85% and my RAM at 1.5 Gigs, I get 0% audible USB drop outs. That has been my experience with the M-Audio sound card, now I would like to share my experience with the TTM 57SL.

When I hook up the USB 1.1 57SL to my system, and play any mp3 using the turntable as my control device, the sound comes out as if I had put in a horribly scratched CD into a CD player; it consistently skips. I have made sure my needles are fresh and working properly as it sounds great on regular vinyl. I have tried using different USB ports on separate busses, even unplugging my USB sound card and having the 57SL use the same USB port my sound card normally uses. I even made an expensive call to a friend in New Zealand who helped me change the buffer and cache with absolutely no luck.

I have phoned Serato tech support but this does not look like it can be solved. My friend from New Zealand was utterly shocked when I told him the problem. He replied, “On _that_ system?!? I can’t imagine what could be wrong.” But I can. From what everyone is describing and my personal experience, it really does look like the USB version 1.1 is what is causing my personal problem with the USB drop outs, because when I’m working on the M-Audio sound card, I don’t hear any problems even with it clocking at high amounts with my AMD. I have also tried using the USB port my M-Audio sound card uses. I thought about disabling some stuff but at this point I don’t care anymore.

I am sure many of you have heard this before, but they say you should not only treat the symptoms to a problem, but you should treat the problem. With the Macs, one of the symptoms to why there are USB drop outs when the keyboard goes to sleep-mode is because it could possibly be it’s the 1.1 version instead of 2.0. However I could be wrong as well. The point is what I have also seen throughout this thread with both Mac and pc users is they would like USB version 2.0 to be released with Serato. I agree with others with not being a fan of Firewire. It’s fast, but it’s so picky in other ways. All in all, if Serato were to switch to USB 2.0, it would please a lot of customers and it would rule out the 1.1 version being the cause of USB drop outs for the engineers at apple. I will go ahead and keep checking back at this as if there is a workaround or solution. I am still interested in getting Serato with a MacBook. Did anyone ever find out what happened to easo? I’ve been really curious if he can get Serato to work with Windows on a MacPro.

Fun Stuff,
Elsa aka Xuma

Sorry that it took me a little bit long to post anything new. I've done some testing yesterday ( 6 hours, Apple you should pay us fot that ) with OS X, and it was as usual. Worked fine on the good port ( ->MacBook<- NO "Pro" ) away from screen, but after 2-3 hours some serious dropouts when loading new songs. Has anyone of you tried to log the USB Bus with the Konsole app ( I don't mean terminal, sorry that I don't know the exact name because my Setup is in German, so perhaps everything is a little bit different on your screen ).



I didn't delete that file, but I tried to read the stuff thats in it. AppleUSBTopCase.kext isn't just a file but a whole directory with a bunch of unreadable ( binary? ) stuff. There was no sleep or shutdowntime for the USB keybord or trackpad to set. I'm a little bit dissapointed that OS X isn't like Linux, because before my MacBook I was a Linux user for 4 years.

Oh, and Xuma, sorry but I still don't believe that USB 1.1 is the problem. Before I bought my MacBook I used a 5 year old Shuttle SV-24 barebone PC, with a Celeron 900 MHz, 256 RAM, and a USB 2.0 card for Serato and the USB-HDD. It worked flawless. It could be that you also have bad USB drivers for your system setup, just like the MacBook has.

Ah, yes and there was the XP question. I haven't tested the USB Bus in XP yet, but last time I tried Scratch Live under XP, it was perfect. Sorry for beeing so lazy, but you'll hear more about XP today. Let me just get a coffee.

I couldn't find a way to post a thread, Only a way to email them. This is the exact email I sent to them

"Here is a HUGE problem alot of macbook owners are having with the whole macbook line (pro included). If we plug in a usb audio device like Serato scratch live (standard software in the dj world) or ProTools M-Box, (again a standard in the music industry), We get usb dropouts when we touch the keyboard or trackpad after it sits for more than 10 seconds (This means we lose connection to the box for a second and the audio cuts out). This is because on the new line of macbooks they have routed the keyboard and mouse through the usb port as you can see in the system profiler. All the tests that I and other people have done show that after about 10 seconds of no use on the keyboard and trackpad they actually either go into a standby mode or go to sleep and then when you go to use it, it wakes up and draws enough power and/or data from the usb port to cause the audio interface to drop out for a second. Does anyone know a way or have any suggestions on how to keep the keyboard and trackpad on and not cause it to go to sleep every 10 seconds. I would expect better quality out of a $2500 laptop that claims to be great for audio products and alot of people who own them can't even use one of the usb ports for audio interfaces which really sucks. Never had this problem with any of the ibook or powerbook lines. Apple, Someone, Please help, the audio community is begging for an os update that keeps the keyboard/trackpad on.

Here are links to Serato's site and pro tools site showing this as a known issue:
www.digidesign.com

scratchlive.net

and here is a link to tests that I have done:
scratchlive.net
"

easo,,,nice effort, thanks for putting the time in. I tried XP on my Macbook and the usb ports work great so you don't have to waist your time on that if you don't need to.

well... here is something i noticed.... the USB issue now effect g4 powerbooks. sence I installed 1.7 i get a usb drop out on the right side usb port on my power book if i touch the keypad after a long time.... the left side usb never goes out

Guys, either it's OS X or Serato, but this whole dropout issue is becoming more and more a mystery to me. I tried something different today than testing XP ( sorry M$-users, but I hate it, and also I wanna use Garageband for recording ). I had used XP with Serato on my MacBook a few days before, and there was not one single dropout. So I tried to use my MacBook as Apple advertises it. As an instant Blog machine. Setup was, SL1 in good ( away from screen ) port, USB-HDD in bad port. That hasn't to mean anything to me, beacause my so called good port is sometimes, well, not so good. I get the same dropouts if I load new songs after one or two hours of spinning with Serato, but that shouldn't be news to you ( I'm wondering who else has the same issues as me).
And here comes the funny part, I had Scratch Live, iMovie using iSight cam, Safari, Mail & Quicktime on, and guess what no dropouts. OK there were my usual dropouts in the first 10-20 sec. but after that, hell I didn't know what a beast this MacBook can be. I even used F9 for Expose all the time and still no dropouts. After about 4 hours I had enough, I loaded songs WITHOUT any dropouts the whole time. A small part of the results can be viewed here.

Watchwww.youtube.com

Oh and by the way, I even recorded another video while uploading the first one to YouTube, so I think the whole system was pretty busy at that moment. I know it's sounds strange, and it makes me feel a total noob to computers, but can it be that the more the MacBook has to do, the better it works? That MacBook will get me insane.

And BriChi seems like we had the same idea about XP. Maybe you could send them another mail, where you tell them about the BootCamp drivers and XP, and that it works perfect with the Serato USB 1.1 box, maybe this will help. Perhaps they can just copy some parts of the driver code that is inside their BootCamp drivers.

Wow. Are you sure you maxed out the SSL performance? Cause when I try SSL on XP on the MBP I get dropouts, I assume due to the drivers still being beta (the apple h/w drivers).

To nik39. Yep, USB buffer was at 2 ms, audio buffer 30 seconds.

How old are your BootCamp-drivers, Apple has released an update some months ago.

Its about 1 month old. Thats veeery strange.

FYI: The only test I ran with XP on the Macbook is the keyboard trackpad test, I couldn't get it to dropout. I didn't use it long enough to see if it dropped out due to other reasons, couldn't take looking at XP on my Macbook, lol,,I just wanted to see if the trackpad dropout was OS related or hardware, It's proved that it is OS related.

I had used XP for about 2 hours, and there was nothing, so I guess XP can handle the SL1 right. Apple, pleeeaaaase.

I lose sleep at night because I have to admit that XP does not have the known issue and OSX does. lol

I always knew Windows is better than Apple.

*duck*

SLAP!!!!

oh nik, you shouldn't have said that. :-)

Just my opinion, I wouldn't say that XP is better than OSX, I love Apple systems, But, XP does have one up on us with this 1 known issue. I guess we Mac users have to grin and bear it

Guys, the hardest thing is always
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
the truth ;)

I don't think that that is the "truth", I think it is more a matter of preference. For me, I work on XP and OSX everyday at my 9-5, And I personally love OSX over XP. For what I use it for, It has been more stable. But easo and Nik, all 3 of us know better than to turn this into a mac vs. pc war, there are enough threads on this and we know that us 3 have better things to do and test than to have this stupid discussion again and again. I think most people think that what they have and what they are used to is the best in the world and everybody else should use it or you suck. lol.

I was just playing. Seriously I dont give sh** whether its windows or mac osx. Whatever works. Sometimes I hate windows, sometimes I hate mac osx.

Lol,,,exactly

Here's the thread Spin: lists.apple.com

Great answer.

i know,lol. Nothing like telling people the stuff is not built to be 100% reliable

For the record that wasn't an official Apple response either...

It seems to me people are misjudging this to be a hardware issue when it's not. It needs to be stressed this a proven Mac OS X driver issue. I think I'm going to post in the USB api list and see if I can get something going since that's really where the problem lies.

Sounds good Spin, Hopefully you will get somewhere. I emailed that guy back and told him the tests I have done to prove that this is OSX issue, But like you even said, He is not an official Apple person so I just took light of his response

Might have been a Stanton/Final Scratch employee. :D

Okay, I'll shut up now.

Here's what I posted to Apple:

^^ Nice work SpinThis!

Where does this dude get his info from ? Sounds like a dude trying to deflect the issue from the real cause of the problem ...

NOT COOL !!!

^^^ May be not a dude ???

Elsa is a girls name..
and SpinThis! your report really looks good.
you should study law..or work as a car mechanic

Nice work SpinThis!!!!

That's the format Apple wants it in... we'll see if that helps. I'll let you guys know I get a response in their bug tracking system....

bugreport.apple.com

This is the kind of bugreport we need here on this board for the beta section.

The real cause of the problem is a combination of four things. A shared hub, a keyboard/mouse that goes to sleep in ten seconds, how apple programmed their firmware drivers and the slowed down speeds in USB version 1.1 like dj disturbed first mentioned. I work with computer scientists at a university and asked them about his claim which was, “when you connect a USB 1.1 device to a USB 2.0 buss…it makes everything else on the USB 2.0 only able to use 1.1 speeds.” It's completely true, he's absolutely right. So I wouldn’t try and go blaming apple’s OS at first hind site because it’s a combination of things.

I'm curious what happened at NAMM as it took place weeks ago. Any word from a moderator on what occurred at that meeting would be much appreciated.


-Elsa

...And yes Elsa is a girls name

Xuma, I doubt it has something to do with the speed going down (which is not completely true).

Please answer...

* why it works fine with Windows XP on the same machine, with the same hardware, setup exactly the same.
* why it works with the other USB port

Thanks.

^^ what nik said.

I think we've already proven it's a software, not a hardware problem.

I said it's a COMBINATION of things, not just one thing.

* It works with XP on both ports because Microsoft codes their drivers differently then how apple does.

I don't see how anyone has proved anything, and as I mentioned again why hasn't Serato spoken up about resolving the issue with Apple yet? Sam from Serato told us they were planning to meet up with Apple at NAMM. NAMM happened several weeks ago and still there is no word.

Have anyone tried this www.sticksoftware.com it jiggles you mouse so you mac doesn't go to sleep.

S

You just proved my point...

^^^ ++ what he said

Then it makes sense that APPLE should code THEIR drivers in the same intelligent manner.

Or at least swallow the bitter pill, run off to Redmond and ask for help. Im sure MS coders will be chomping at the bit for this one.

Lemme know the results of the jiggler software test.

COME ON, we need a fix!!!

This is the world's longest thread. I was hoping there would be a report back giving a summary of the meeting Serato had with Apple at NAMM.

Honestly, though, there has got to be someone on this message board who works at Apple. ANYONE? Seriously...

i know.

jesus, wth is going on.

we were told they were talking to apple at NAMM, right?

so where's the update rane!

im not mad, just concerned with my serato box. as well as my mbox for audio recording.

sighhhhh.

Suppose APPLE decided not to co-operate ....

You know, sometimes going through technical support can be a dead-end. Often times it doesn't matter if developers and/or technical support people are aware of a problem... they don't necessarily decide what issues take top priority. Posting in forums, calling technical support, and opening bug reports doesn't necessarily create the right motivation. Try finding out who the product managers are for the MacBook and MacBook Pro. I'm sure they'll pay attention when they start getting the calls and emails. M-Audio is probably more likely to have a stronger business relationship with Apple than Rane. It wouldn't hurt to enlist champions from their end. This is obviously a huge, stupid problem that needs to be solved, and the only hope is to get this in front of the right set of eyes and ears at Apple.

To be honest, the overheating problems seem like more of a showstopper for the new MacBook to be a usable DJ solution. They just run so damn hot I'd be afraid of a shutdown midset.

I'm pretty sure elsa is right..it's a combination and that it works flawlessly under XP doesn't mean anything..
resources are split in a different way,there is no trackpad going to sleep etc. etc.
fixing this issue could mean either apple implenting a switch to disable the trackpad sleep mode or code it in a way it works properly or serato upgrading to USB 2.0 and offering to upgrade everyone's unit for free

That's not totally true because I have the core2 duo macbook and macbook pro and both run very cool during performances, especially compared to my older powerbook g4. I don't even use the cooling pad anymore with the new macbook's. I know the first gen macbook core duo's ran pretty hot, But the new core2duo's are great in my opinion

the Intel chips run way cooler than the g4/g5 ever was (no more liquid cooling the Mac Pro for example) but that's really a topic for another thread.


well, in some sense that statement is correct.... but ultimately it's a software problem.... hardware either works or it doesn't. it's the software's job to communicate what it wants the hardware to do (or not to do)—in this case, the mac os drivers aren't quite "there" yet.

what I'm suspecting is happening is part of the problem is the switch to intel indirectly affected some of the device drivers.... a lot of the hardware from the MacBooks/Pros is oem from other sources (remember Apple and IBM designed much of the PowerPC boards themselves). how much say Apple had in the design of the software drivers might be questionable—it sounds like they might have contracted it out and said "here make this work in OS X" so when it comes to an issue like this, the more people who got involved means the more fingerpointing and backtracking that must be done.

ultimately, at least for us, this is a very fixable problem.

this sucks.

still now fix?!?!

isnt there someone who knows apple's script language?!

Might never be a fix. It seems to be a hardware issue

^^ not a hardware issue...

any word on whether this works or not?

Tried it, doesnt work.

Same here, Doesn't work

OMG i figured out how to make it so you dont get a drop out!

just use the port that doesnt make serato drop out.

j/k. im about to get a macbook and really wish apple had fixed this by now.

Found this person via LinkedIn -- not in my network so I don't know there name. However, wow, bingo, this is the guy who you want to get the issue in front of:

Private

Kernel Engineer at Apple

San Francisco Bay Area
Contact Directly

Current

* OS X Kernel at Apple
* Low-Level Software Architect at Apple

Education

*
University of Michigan
*
University of Michigan

Connections

25 connections
Industry

Computer Software

Summary

I help design and code low-level software of all kinds-- I now work in the Mac OS X kernel team.

Before moving back to software, I spent just over 10 years in the Mac hardware division of Apple.

Most recently designed the thermal and power management subsystem used for the Intel-based Macs. Worked on the boot firmware, ACPI, and embedded controller software design to support both Mac OS X and Windows.

Worked for 7+ years the software manager and engineering lead of the iBook (PowerPC) product line @ Apple (I worked on every iBook and 12" PowerBook ever shipped). My team implemented the sudden motion sensor as well as other features which eventually ended up across the MacBook product line.

Worked for 3+ years as an engineer in PowerBook division of Apple (PowerBook 3400, PowerBook G3). Also managed PC Card & Cardbus software development at this time. Worked with OS team to improve power management of System 8.x.

Worked in the Mac OS Group on original PowerPC bring-up, System 7.5, and the ill-fated Copland project. Responsible for Process Manager and integration of AppleGuide online help system.
Specialties:

Power & Thermal Mangement, EFI, ACPI, PCI, USB, PC Card, and Microcontroller software development. Mac OS X software application & driver development.

BriChi,.. any news here?

Not yet. I'm still waiting to here is the Serato guys got anywhere with Apple at NAMM

i dont really feel like reading this whole discusion so i donno where u guys are at with it but i have the black macbook (not the pro) and i get the usb drop once in a while.......

That is what this thread is about, to sum it up, it's an issue with OSX and hopefully apple will have it fixed soon

**holding breath**

i think im gonna die soon...

Hi fellas,

sorry for beeing away so long, but I had some personal problems ( women, why the hell… ) . But I don't have any real news for you. I tried to use an external powered USB-hub, but that also doesn't fix any problems with SL1 on OS X. Anyway, tried XP with Scratch Live for several days, and sadly I must commit, it works. No problems with XP.

Hear that Apple?

when you say no problems with XP.

do you mean, both USB ports work fine without any drop outs??!

Yes, That is my case too, When I use XP, I get no dropouts on both ports

that sucks.

where's the news from NAMM!

i feel sorta like we're being ignored?

uh-oh!

:)

i got my black macbook and the first usb plug only doesnt once in a while, but the second one does it whenever i touch the keyboard...fuck that!!!!!!

So does the USB never drop out as long as SL1 is plugged into the good port and you do not touch the brighness adjuster? Or will it just randomly drop out even with the good port?

When I have the sl1 in the good port I get no dropouts at all

yeah me too.

also, ive got an mBox and when im trying to record my scratching, i have to decide ok...mbox in good port or bad port, in order to plug my SL box in...

So it sucks, cause i often DO use both ports, and it would be nice if neither of them drop out.

damnit.

lol

RANE WHERE YOU AT!

SHIIIIZAAA

cutrix, just curious, is the mbox also usb1 or usb2?

im gonna buy the soundbite microsync.. hope i dont have to decide >between< Ableton and ScratchLive all the time just because apple's developers suck so much..

my usb 1 dose it sometimes (it should never do it!!), not a whole lot...but usb 2 doesnt everytime i touch the fuckin keyboard....im gettin fuckin pissed jus thinkin about it acctually....

You guys should complain to Apple too, Biching here unfortunately will not get us anywhere, The more people that yell at Apple, the quicker this shit might get fixed

• USB type B socket (v.1.1); cable included (does not support passive USB hubs)

[ www.digidesign.com ]

i'm real curious if ssl/Rane came out with a usb 2 box if this issue would be resolved, I remember 1 of the 100's of discussions I had with Apple that the Macbooks do not fully support usb1 anymore and something like if you plug a usb 1 box into it drops the whole bus down to that speed (i believe 12mbps) which messes up the keyboard/trackpad data and power, If the sl1 was usb2, the bus would always run at 400mbps and everything would have more than enough power and speed to not cause dropouts. I'm not 100% about this, Just throwing out there for you guys to think about too

But every USB mouse or keyboard is USB 1.1. that would mean that even a mouse could cause some problems on a MacBook. And if Rane came out with a USB 2.0 box , what would that mean to us, should we all just buy the next version. Sorry but i really don't want to spend 600 €s again , when i know this thing works flawless under XP.

You are right, I do not want to spend 600 either, I would just like to know "If" that would be a possible solution and maybe Rane would offer the box for real cheap if you trade in the old sl1. Also, if you ran a usb1 mouse on the front port, it will not effect anything on the back port, they are 2 seperate buses. If you plug the mouse into the "Bad" port, you would never know it is bad, there would be no indication because the mouse does not ask for as much pull for data as the sl1 does plus it wouldn't cause any dropouts if the sl1 was plugged into the other port

BriChi.

im working with the mBox 1.

so i BELIEVE its a USB 1.0.

not sure tho, i just did a quick search on google.

how come?

Thanks cutrix,,,,I wanted to know becuse as I had mentioned above:

oh ok.

yeah, no prob.

this really does suck though, seems like there's a lot of us who care about this issue.

but those who are able to do anything about it...aren't

hate to be a negative nancy, BUT, lets resolve the issue, jeeeeeze.

totally agree with ya

O.k., Here's the deal. I just bought a new macbook in January. 2 gig, 2 gig 13.3 white macbook. I have been reading this thread and it answers why I have been using only one of the usb ports to plug the SSL in. I tested and, sure enough, get the usb dropout from one port only after I wait 10 seconds and then touch or scroll the trackpad. I looked in system profiler and it shows each usb bus having only one thing attatched to it......... all except one. One usb bus shows it as being a high speed usb bus. All except for that one show a max transfer rate of 12mb/sec. I would guess this is the rate for usb 1. The high speed bus transfers up to 480 mb/sec. that one has my external hard drive and the isight camera connected to it. I switched SSL and hard drive into each other's usb port and guess what? When I looked in the profiler again it still showed the SSL on a regular usb hub with a tranfer rate of 12mb/sec and the hard drive and isight were still on the high speed bus. At no time was SSL on the same bus as anything else. The trackpad was on it's own bus at all times. Now after the switch, I no longer got the usb dropouts, so just switching does work, but the hard drive always connects to the high speed bus and, presumably, because it is usb 1, the SSL always connects to a regular bus at 12mb/sec. No dropouts, but the same ransfer rate and it is always on it's own bus. As far as the usb booster goes, no such thing unless your talking about a cable to extend length. I would love some input on my experience. Again, all of the buses have a transfer rate of 12mb/sec except whichever port the external hard drive and isight camera are on.

TRAXX, you just proved a point for me, If the SL1 was usb2, we would most likely not have this issue because it would run on a seperate bus as the keyboard and trackpad. I noticed if I plug my usb2 maxtor into the bad port, it does not show up under the keyboard bus anymore, it shows up on the high speed 480mbps bus which is what the sl1 would probably do also if it was usb2

Does it also prevent the dropouts when you plug in the harddrive first, then remove it, and then plug in SSL in the same physical port? Or do you have to connect both at the same time (in different physical ports) and then swap?

Traxx, did you refresh the system profiler after you plugged and unplugged the devices? No matter what combo I try, the sl1 always ends up on the trackpad/keyboard bus on the back port. If i plug my hard drive into the port closest to me and the sl1 in the back one, The sl1 shows up on the keyboard port, if i switch them, the sl1 is on it's own bus

SSL always runs on it's own bus on my macbook. I've been up for like 21 hours now, so tomorrow I'll double check on the refresh thing. I tried to save my profiler as a txt file to drop in here, but I am new to mac and my email is on my pc. I only use the mac for SSL. I could only save it as a .pdf file that was 118 pages long. I couldn't just select the USB section and copy and paste it into a txt file. I'm really not that fluent on the mac yet aside from SSL. I'll check it out further tomorrow.

yeah, try closing and reopening the profiler each time, if you just leave the profiler open and switch the usb cables, the profiler will not change unless you click refresh in the view menu or hold down the apple key and press "R". I can almost guarantee that if you plug ssl into the port closest to the power and then open the system profiler, ssl will be on the same usb as the keyboard and trackpad. You can save this by opening the system profiler and choosing "FILE" "SAVE AS" This will create a file of your whole profiler

Here is a copy of my profiler with the SL1 plugged into the "bad" port (the one next to the firewire port)

ugli.quickshareit.com

And here is the profiler with SL1 plugged into the good port (the one further away from the firewire port)

lemon.quickshareit.com

You guys are forgetting that SSL works great on both ports in Windows XP. That really rules out the possibility of a hardware problem. Whether it works on the "bad" part is irrelevant. You're making it seem as if this a hardware problem and I'm pretty sure how that's coming off to Apple which is not the issue.

The PowerBooks were setup the same way—one bus had to have the keyboard/trackpad on one side. I'll profile it as a comparison when I get home from work today but ultimately it's a software driver issue.

Is the 57 sl usb 2.0? If it is how about giving that a try and seeing what the result is.

Spin, I know it is a software issue with Apple, But if Apple chooses not to fix this, the other alternative may be for the SL1 to be USB2, If the sl1 was usb2, it would run on a high speed bus that was not be connected to the keyboard/trackpad. The reason it works fine on xp is because xp is not timing out the keyboard after 10 seconds like osx does. On my g4 powerbook, the keyboard and the mouse were not linked to the usb bus. The sl1 was always seperate.

.

That would be a good test heavy, Anyone on here have the 57 that can test this? Plug it in and see if it comes up on the 12mbps bus or the 480 one

Oh well, forget it, I just found out it's usb1. :-(

Confirmed, USB1.1.

Hey TRAXX, my MacBook does the same on System Profiler. No matter what port the SL is connected to, it is always on the same bus as the iSight cam. I bought my MacBook last September, so perhaps it is because of the different versions ( CoreDuo & Core 2 Duo ). System profiler says I have a MacBook 1.1 . BriChi has a MacBook 2.1, but I think TRAXX has a 2.1, too, cause he bought his MB on January. TRAXX can you confirm this?

I'll try that switching that you mentioned earlier, hope it works on me to.

And yes I pushed "Apple"+R, or refresh.

A few weeks ago, before the last Update from Apple, the SL and my hardrive always changed buses when I changed ports. I mentioned that some weeks ago, ( YES, I'm not getting mad, it truly stays on the same bus, thanx TRAXX ) so Apple has done something about their USB drivers. Maybe not the right thing, but at least they have done something. Duh!?!

i don't think serato would change the sl-1 to usb2. i'm pretty sure the current usb1 drivers would no longer work. can you imagine the mayhem that would cause.

lol,,,true, it would be fun to read though

i really wish people from serato would look this thread up and give a statement..
NAMM is over for nearly a month

O.k., I finally got around to refreshing the profiler after trying the ssl in each usb port. BriChi, you are absolutely correct. When I plug it into the port furthest away from the firewire, it shows up on it's own bus and you get no dropouts. When I connect the ssl to the port closest to the firewire, it shows up on the same bus as the trackpad. My profiler looks identical to your BriChi. I did try something new today, though. I just bought a Targus ac/usb powered cooling pad from Staples. I plug the cooling pad (which has a 4 port usb 2.0 hub in it) into the "good" usb port on the mac. I plug both the ssl and the External hard drive into the usb ports on the hub. Now in profiler, I see the usb2.0 hub located on the high speed bus. the ssl and external hard drive both show up on the usb2.0 hub and, therefore, I get the advantages of both the external hard drive and the ssl being on the high speed bus totally away from the trackpad bus. This still does not solve the problem of the "bad" usb port. If you run xp, this issue does not exist, so it has to be a software issue. There's no two ways about it. Something kinda stupid did cross mind mind today as well. what is the physical difference between usb 1.1 and usb 2.0? I know the transfer rates are 12 and 480 mb/sec, but is it just a matter of different soldered connections or something? It would be great if someone (such as RANE) could frankenstein a ssl box and try to make it usb 2.0. They would also be the ones to create new drivers. I think some time and one ssl box is worth the risk to RANE.
Easo, yes, I do have a 2.1. With 2 gigs of ram also. My profiles look the same as BriChi's, except for the ram factor. The long and short of this is:
This problem is two fold. The macbook usb ports should be 100% backwards compatible with usb 1.1 and there is absolutely no good reason that RANE have stayed with the usb 1.1 format. Aside from the great features of ssl, I thought the idea of a technology company was to at least keep up with standards if not push them farther. Apple and RANE need to get together. Apple needs to patch the usb drivers so that they are 100% backwards compatible without any dropouts from ANY usb 1.1 equipment and Rane should have moved to usb 2.0 a long time ago. I don't mean to rant, but both companies market themselves to us DJs and all other professionals in the music and graphics fields. They need to make sure to keep this group satisfied with their products. I could have purchased an xp laptop for the same $1600 my mac cost with the upgraded ram and I could have also purchased another real time audio interface. I didn't. I went with apple and RANE because they represent the cutting edge in this area. At least I used to think so.

sorry to rant.

And please ignore the whole powered usb 2.0 port idea. I just tried it and ssl recognizes the connection to the box, but the tracks won't play, so although the mac sees it on the usb 2.0 hub connected to the high speed bus, ssl will not function properly...........the traxx don't play. I should have checked before posting that, sorry guys.

The reason why the SSL box is USB 1.1 is to be compatible with older Laptops that don't have USB 2.0. Actually, I think Rane/Serato put quite some effort to sticking to 1.1 with the TTM57 for this reason.

I would say it's Apple's fault because they should support USB 1.1 fully, especially when they claim to do so in their product specifications.

However, the Rane/SSL team does not seem to give this whole thing much priority. Only 2 of the 369 posts in this thread are by Rane/Serato employees and were something like "nice work BriChi" and "we are as frustrated as you". Not very helpful.

To me it seems the increasing competition on the market put pressure on Serato to implement new features (Key Lock/BPM detection/Video/MIDI) to stay ahead of the competition and leaves no time to deal with our problem. Understandable from a business perspective but frustrating for us.

Nice info Traxx, that's for the update

If I would be Rane/Serato I would come up with some statistics of how how often SSL has been sold and what's the approximate percentage of Mac users.

Then I would go to Apple, show them the numbers and tell them that if they don't fix the bug the officially recommended platform for SSL will from now on be Windows.

Ideally, they would team up with Avid to do so.

The thing is arent usb 2 devices supposed to be backwards compatible with usb 1.1... if they are then why not switch to usb 2 on the 57 sl. My older laptop used 1.1 and i plug in all my usb 2 devices into it... the xfer rate is slower but no problems running, that is just a thought tho...

i'm talking in terms of the DRIVER on your computer. not the interface on the box. what i mean is, it is VERY unlikely that the current serato driver (written for a usb1.x interface) will work on a new SL-1 box that is usb2.x.

the fact that you would need a new driver, possibly keep two drivers on your box if you do clubs or spin with both box types, this would cause a LOT of issues.

i already get problems with guys not having the 57 driver installed. i'd imagine adding a THIRD needed driver to peoples laptops is gonna cause more problems.

Good call Brichi. Do you recomend a place/email where we could all open fire?


ps. did jj traxx "fix" the problem or just figure out why it was happpening? I gathered that it is happening because SL1 is usb 1. if I am right, is it possible for apple to fix the problem?

That's lots of speculation here and I add my own speculation: It would probably not be a big deal to unify all drivers into one.

I think the real question is if the SL-1/TTM57 hardware allows to be converted to a USB 2.0 device just by changing the firmware. (Can the SL-1 firmware be changed anyway?)

I would expect the electrical signals on the USB 2.0 to be different from USB 1.1 due to the higher data rate. This must be supported by the *hardware* and if the SL-1 and TTM-57 can do it is not sure.

no.. they use diff chips... the Serato guys have posted up a buch of times about why they use USB 1.1 instead of 2.0.

The first thing I did was call Apple support and bitch to them and open a bug report. Here is the # 18002752273

Maybe the chips are capable of 2.0 but just configured to run in 1.1 mode. At least in case of the TTM57 which is relatively new and expensive it would have been a smart design choice. You never know what comes...

i disagree,. i use my 57 with my thinkpad, which is usb1.x only. i for one appreciate that ssl still uses 1.x interface. half of the computers i own are usb 1.x only.

so im not sure how many people have called in, but i havent yet.

we should do like a HUGE party line, and just overwhelm the lame script readers at apple.

then get to someone who KNOWS what they're doing.

haha

cause this is re-god-damn-diculous.

LOL... I'm gonna call in and just say that ^^.

It would still work with your thinkpad b/c USB 2.0 is downward compatible.

ha!

i know, right Limelight!

Yep, I also tried the AC powered USB hub, SL1 is recognized but won't play any tracks. Maybe it because of USB 1.1 and 2.0. As we all know SL1 is 1.1 , and every external HDD is 2.0. But as someone else said before, all speculation is useless, RANE/Serato has to say something about that NAMM meeting with Apple.

RANE/Serato, were the hell are you, please don't ingnore us, because we're all starting to feel like that.

i don't think anyone has ever been able to get the sl-1 to work on a usb hub, powered or not. i know i've never been able to.

Me neither, No luck using hubs

Guys, I was surprised as well... but my TTM57 works on a hub on a PC. Dont ask me how/why...

yes, but does your sl-1?

I dont know... but the TTM57 is already a surprise for me.

EVERYBODY PLEASE TRY THIS OUT!!!

I was at a local Apple Store and told them about the problem. They also couldn't give me any answer, except, call Apple. But I met another custumer there who also has Scratch Live, and we talked about the USB issue. He told me that he hasn't got any problems with his MacBook ( white , 1,83 GHz , but 2 GB RAM , I've only 512 MB ) and invited me to his place to try his SL1 box. Maybe it is the SL1 box that causes the issues. Anyway, we tried his box on my MacBook and got the same dropouts at the beginning. So he started to stop some processes, in order to get some more free RAM. Guess what, the dropouts dissappeared after stopping a whole bunch of them. We didn't have more time because he had something else to do. But he told me a little recipe that might work. He is a System Administrator so I trusted his words. And believe me it works ( at least for me ). Here's the answer.

Go to System Preferences ( or what it's called in English, I have a German OS X, so everything could be a little bit different, but I think y'all know what I mean ) , and create a new user. Be sure that this user doesn't load any Start Up apps ( It doesn't matter if this user is Admin or not, mine is set at Admin ). Then unlog from OS X and log in to that new user you've created. You don't need to hold Shift anymore after pressing Return. Now start SL and everything should work.

I still get the blinking USB light on the dispay after the magic 10 sec. but there a no hearable dropouts no matter which port I use, I even checked that with headphones on, so I guess the problem is free RAM, not really USB.

I did another check. I fired up the Activity monitor when I used SL under the new and old user ( old = hold Shift after log in so no Start Up Apps loaded ). With the new user I have only about 10-15 processes open and about 130-180 MB of free RAM, with the old user there are about 50-60 processes running ( Yes, I always pressed Shift after log in ) and only 8-15 MB of free RAM. I did also another test to proove it could be the RAM. I logged into the new user and first I started GarageBand and created a new song, then I fired up Scratch Live. The issues I had on the bad port and on the good port ( remember, I also had dropouts when I used the good port, but they only appeared randomly ) all came back. I checked the free RAM status again with the Activity Monitor, and free RAM was again about 10 MB. Then I closed GarageBand, waited about 20-30 sec. so SL can grab free RAM, and, yeah baby, it worked again like it always should.

So please everyone, I know some of you have more RAM than me, BriChi has 2 GB I think but perhaps there are even more processes running on his MacBook, please try out this "new user" recipe. It really works for me, so I'm waiting for your feedback.

By the way, that guys MacBook ( 1,83 GHz - 2 GB RAM ) also get's the blinking USB light after the magic 10 sec. on the bad port , but there are also no hearable dropouts. Nothing.

I can't try it, cause my box is 300km away from here, but i have 2 GB installed in my MBP and after a fresh OS X boot much much more than 1GB of free RAM.

I'll try that out in a few days, but free RAM can't be the issue.

i don't doubt that this works easo, but i doubt it from "too many" processes running or not enough ram. i think it would have more to do with what the function of some of those processes are.

I droped over something at the known issues Forum here on Scratchlive.net

from Sam.

The Mac version of Scratch LIVE does not currently work with a USB buffer setting of 1 (the minimum).

A USB buffer setting of 1 is a special case, which requires a more ->complicated implementation<-. The priority of implementing this feature has not been high enough to make it happen yet, but a future version will support a buffer size of 1ms.

or read again here scratchlive.net . Maybe Serao has to work more on this complicated implementation. I know, I know, Powerbooks also have that minimum USB buffer of 2 ms. . But maybe that more improved OS X version of ScratchLive can solve our MacBook problem. I still want to use SL together with GarageBand for live recording. I hope I have that 180 €'s next month for that 2 GB RAM my MacBook is crying for.

is calling in for a Mondyas better or can I calling todays on Friday

I tried, it works fine, which confuses me very much.

Anyone have any ideas on what processes I can kill on my Macbook while running SSL??

I just want to make the 400th post.

im waiting for 402

done

sweet.

glad people are trying new things.

but seriously, where is rane on this topic!

wtf, h4x.

so...

right on!

im so glad we're getting a helping hand in this situation. Thanks Moderators!

check this out:

Tuesday, February 20, 2007

Latest Mac OS X 10.4.9 seed patches Bluetooth, DVD burning bugs

By Slash Lane
Published: 12:00 PM EST

A maintenance and security update for Apple's Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger operating system inched closer to a release this week, with the latest pre-release builds reflecting no known issues with the software.

Following a two-week hiatus that saw no seeds of the impending update, the Cupertino based Mac maker has reportedly released to its developers Mac OS X 10.4.9 builds 8P2130 and 8P130.

The two builds, for Intel- and PowerPC-based Macs, respectively, were said to weigh in at 166.8 MB and 72.4 MB in bare bones "Delta" form. Slightly heftier "Combo" updates, which pack previous standalone security and other updates, came in at 309.6 MB and 166.8 MB.

In a set of release notes accompanying the latest builds, Apple reportedly informed its developers of the implementation of three new bug fixes since builds 8P125 and 8P2125, bringing the total number of code corrections in Mac OS X 10.4.9 to over 100.

Specifically, Apple said it fixed issues with deleting Bluetooth headsets from the Mac OS X Bluetooth preferences. It also took care of some problems with DiscRecording and the burning of DVDs, as well as others with CoreAudio and AudioConverter.

Again, Apple asked that developers focus their testing efforts around key system components such as Audio, Bluetooth, bonjour, Disk Images, FireWire, Fonts, Graphics, iCal, iChat Video Conferencing, iSync, Rosetta, USB and .Mac Connectivity.

A precise release date for Mac OS X 10.4.9 remains imminent but unknown.

------------------------------------------------------------

"
Again, Apple asked that developers focus their testing efforts around key system components such as Audio, Bluetooth, bonjour, Disk Images, FireWire, Fonts, Graphics, iCal, iChat Video Conferencing, iSync, Rosetta, USB and .Mac Connectivity."


------------------------------------------------------------

LETS HOPE FOR THIS USB F**** FIX!

LOL...we think a like...i mean joke alike

What's up fellas, no news here?

Did anyone try out SL with the "new user method" i suggested last week. I'm running SL under the new user for one week now, and there are still no problems. For me the problem is solved, but I still need more RAM for GarageBand, but that doesn't really belong here.

So, if anyone should have dropout problems with SL, create a new user and everything should be fine.

Hell, now I really love my MacBook.

easo, i tried the new user method, no luck with the keyboard dropout though, i still get it on the bad port

From your description it sounds like you prevent dropouts by ensuring that you always have enough unused memory. It's like your car is boken but as long as you don't drive too fast it works.

I'm happy that it works for you and thankful that you shared it with us but I think it's time for a real solution...

Martin.

i agree, god damnit!

haha!

dont take me as just bitching, i called apple monday, gave them the case number and they told me BS stuff like, "we have our developers looking into the USB issue, we sent out a new build of 10.4.9 to developers and are waiting for the solutions, the problem is being addressed."

basically reading off a script it sounded like

fuckers.

at least they admitted that it's their fault

That sounds good. Tiger 10.4.9 is on it's way, and at the end of march we can expect Leopard to be released. I hope Apple releases 10.4.9 before the end of February, and that the new version helps with the USB dropout problem.

keeping my fingers crossed

When you guys call Apple, always make sure you get people's names and extensions when you called so you can refer to them later. If you talk to a new guy who doesn't know his head from his ass, refer to whoever you talked to earlier. If they admit they can't help you, ask that you want to speak to an engineer or someone in PR. The PR people talk ages to get on the line with but they might be able to help...

Whats up guys.

so I'm aware that there isnt a release for 10.4.9, yet.

BUT, lets say i was able to get the developer version, or the DELTA version of this upgrade :) and in its GIGANTIC list of fixes...well you guys can read it for yourself. I'm about to get this version...and ill test it out, and i'll report to you guys!

but here's the list: (BTW, this ish is legit, I promise on Scratch Live)

Areas of Change
New in this seed:
- Fixed issue with deleting Bluetooth headsets from Bluetooth preferences
- Fixed issue with CoreAudio and AudioConverter
- Fixed issue with DiscRecording and the burning of DVDs.

- Fixed issue with ImageIO and importing FCP files
- Fixed problem with network printing and AppleTalk
- Fixed issue with Rosetta and float conversion
- Fixed issue with automatically joining trusted AirPort networks after reboot
- Fixed issue with OpenGL and ATI PBO
- Fixed issue with OpenGL Programmability and graphic cards
- Fixed problem with OpenGL Framework and gleCommandProcessor
- Fixed issue with GraphicsDrivers Common Code and memory leaks
- Fixed issue with CoreImage and the cropping of multiple images
- Fixed issue with Sync Services Engine
- Fixed issue with ImageIO and the exporting of ISO data
- Fixed problem with CoreData Framework and multiple accessing programs
- Fixed issue with iSync and phone conduit
- Fixed issue with OpenGL Rosetta and DrawBuffersSimple
- Fixed problem with USB and isoch endpoint
- Fixed issue with OpenGL Programmability
- Fixed problem with OpenGL Framework and gleCommandProcessor
- Fixed issue with OpenGL and VM_ALLOCATE
- Fixed issue with CoreImage and exporting
- Fixed problem with File Manager and FSReadFork/FSWriteFork
- Fixed issue with Text Services Manager and background documents
- Fixed issue with CoreAudio where sound may fade in and out in some cases
- Fixed problem with Smartcard and securityd
- Fixed issue with X11 Xplugin and 256 color mode
- Fixed issue with Rosetta and rint
- Fixed problem with dyld
- Fixed issue with USB Isoc receivers
- Fixed issue with wake from Sleep and SecurityAgent
- Fixed issue with Rosetta and cache
- Fixed issue with Bluetooth and Bluetooth mouse when waking from sleep
- Fixed issue with ConsoleUser/SecureConsoleUser and IOKit Kernel
- Fixed issue with 'at' command and system_cmds
- Fixed onkeyup/onkeydown issue with WebCore JavaScript
- Fixed problem with rsync and extended attributes
- Fixed issue with NAT-PMP and port mapping
- Fixed issue where KEV_DL_IF_ATTACHED was not being received by kext
- Fixed issue with Color Sync and V4 profiles
- Fixed issue with MSDOS FS
- Issue where .m4v file extensions may not be recognized has been fixed
- Fixed issue with copying read-only files Xsan/UFS-backed AFP volumes
- Fixed issue with DVD Player
- Fixed problem with Crash Reporter
- Fixed issue with headset pairing and Bluetooth
- Fixed issue with incorrect time zones in certain areas
- Fixed problem with enabling/disabling Bluetooth
- Fixed issue with rsync and the copying of mod times
- Fixed problem with .Mac and Sync Services
- Addressed issue with USB modem recording level
- Fixed syncing issue with internal and external modem driver
- Fixed DRON/DROF issue with USB modem
- Fixed problem where USB modem may not detect busy tone
- Fixed issue with CFNetwork and network-aware USB devices
- Fixed issue with Sync Services and Address Book
- Fixed problem with USBInterfaceOpen and IOUSBLib
- Fixed issue with QC Engine
- Fixed problem with Kerberos OpenSSH patch
- Fixed problem with Open SSH and LaunchDaemon
- Fixed issue with HLTB Events (Carbon)
- Fixed issue with HLTB Accessibility (Carbon)
- Fixed issue with HLTB Control Manager (Carbon)
- Fixed issue with HLTB Windows (Carbon)
- Fixed issue with HID and IOKit
- Fixed problem with PDFKit and MalloGuardEdges
- Fixed issue with CoreAudio and MIDI files
- Fixed problem with natd NAT-PMP and port mapping
- Fixed problem with USB Isoc receivers
- Fixed printing issue with applications that use Rosetta when a user is mounted to a SMB home directory
- Fixed gssapi-with-mic and Open SSH issue
- Fixed issue with Unix 'at' command
- Fixed problem with CoreData Framework
- Fixed problem with CUPS
- Fixed issue with Network Diagnostics and WPA2 encryption
- Fixed issue where internal modem may not sync with external modem driver
- Fixed problem with CFNetwork and network-aware USB devices
- Fixed issue with dyld
- Fixed issue with MSDOS FS
- Fixed issue with Sync Services and Address Book
- Fixed problem with Apple internal modem and busy tone detection
- Fixed problem with Kerberos OpenSSH patch
- Fixed problem with Open SSH and LaunchDaemon
- Fixed issue with SMB File Server
- Fixed problem with IOkit Kernel
- Fixed issue with connecting a system to display while in Sleep mode
- Fixed problem with WebCore JavaScript and onkeyup/onkeydown event handler
- Issue where .m4v file extensions may not be recognized has been fixed
- Fixed issue with File Systems and copying read-only files
- Fixed issue with Software Update and format string
- Fixed problem with Sync Services Engine
- Fixed issue with rsync and extended attributes
- Fixed issue with Sync Services and .Mac Sync
- Addressed USB Modem and record level
- Fixed issue with Universal Access preferences pane
- Fixed problem with USB Modem and caller ID
- Fixed problem with Bluetooth and device pairing
- Fixed issue where USB modem may not detect busy tone
- Fixed issue with QC Engine
- Fixed issue with CoreGraphics and HID Manager
- Fixed issue with PDFKit and MallocGuardEdges
- Issue with Automator Actions and generated text fixed
- Fixed issue with .Mac and syncing

Now these are Fixes AS OF NOW, so nothing is final!

thanks cutrix, Let us know as soon as you use it, I really want to know if they fixed the usb dropout issue (although i doubt it), and feel free to send me the update when you get it. :-)

alright.

I installed 10.4.9 Developer version on my macbook core 2 duo

1 gb of ram.

so i did a real basic test, played a song on DECK 1, left it playing for 20 seconds, and pushed the up down arrows...and still DROP outs! But only a little one, it lasts for about .0000005 milliseconds.

but its still there.

i tried the same test with just moving the mouse after 20 seconds, and still the same thing.

any suggestions how i could do a more intuitive examination?

Guys and Gals.

I got this release from OINK.ME.UK

ive posted a forum topic there discussing the issue with Serato and Other USB Audio devices and the USB drop out.

i hope to hear back from someone over there, because I think there are developers for MAC on that site.

ill keep you posted!

curtix,
is the dropout audible? the other port still works fine i assume?

cutrix,,,,You can only registerfor OINK.ME.UK by invite, you feel like inviting me,,,:-)

bah just another lame p2p site.. someone send the bitches to prison

shit,,,didn't know. arrest those bitches

???

You would need 50000 of such 'little' dropouts in a row just to loose a single sample...

And less than one sample cannot be lost...

i was being sacarstic guys.

bu thtere is still a drop out.

Serato where are you? We just want to hear that you're still on it! You don't need to say that it's fixed. A comment on the progress with the problem would be very appreciated!

Thanks

word up.

Ok everyone, here's the word, thanks for your extreme patience...

We've been unable to extract any firm commitment from Apple on when a fix will be available, but have been assured that their USB team is aware of the issue:
"The issue which you've reported is known, but a solution is still being investigated. There is no workaround fix for "disabling" keyboard sleep as you suggest."

Testing with the latest 10.4.9 and Leopard (10.5) developer seeds hasn't revealed any improvement, but we'll be checking the 10.4.9 test versions closely for any change.

Apple Developer Technical Support informed me late last week that there's no workaround for this problem, apart from not using the port worst affected by the bug, and avoiding use of the hardware function keys on the other port. Accidentally pressing the hardware function keys can be avoided by checking "Use the F1-F12 keys to control software features" in the Keyboard & Mouse preferences dialog, this reverses the effect of the 'Fn' key, but that's about all that can be done until Apple come through with a fix for this.

We'll continue to put whatever pressure on Apple we can until this issue is addressed to our satisfaction, hopefully we'll have better news for you all soon...

holy cow!

they're alive!

thanks for getting back to us andy, and hey THANKS for following through.

true rane fan, for sure!

Thanks Andy!

hopefully it will turn out to just be a software issue. and not hardware... hmmmmmm.

but good looking, on the info, rane moderater dude... i never new about the "Fn" key reversal..
thanx

thanks andy for the update

SUe mac!

www.djstuart.com.ar

I think overall what we have with Mac is still better than all this DRM crap that is coming with Vista. Let's see if Vista DRM will affect SSL in some way... I hope not.

Any word on release of an sl2 with usb 2.0 support or a firewire version of the sl box? Cuz if apple aint fixing it... then... rane only you can prevent usb dropouts!

www.apple.com

Why not let some folks (see above) know your dissatisfaction with their handling of the situation and your plans to contact the music industry press with details regarding the musician/DJ unfriendly MacBooks. Not much of a performer's laptop if it's got a USB design issue, me thinks.

so is the ttl 57 usb 2?

no.

Isn't it possible for Rane/Serato to use USB 2.0 in their hardware (SL1, TTM57 SL, MP4)? They only have to use the bandwith of USB 1.1 if they want it to be downward compatible! USB 2.0 will work on a USB 1.1 port but with reduced speed. If they use 2.0 they can increase the bandwith in the future if necessary and by that time USB 1.1 may no be common anymore?

USB 1.1 = 12 mbit/sec
USB 2.0 = 480 mbit/sec

Guess: This has been discussed before =)

grr apple the bitches.. i wanna buy a soundcard for 120€ but i am forced to buy one for 190€ simply because the other one got usb 1.1 ... i'm starting to hate that company like hell

Whats up fellow DJ's! I'm new to the Serato, and to the world of Mac...just got a MacBook Core Duo, 2 gig ram 667 mhz ddr2 sdram. Had my first gig last SAT and of course experienced all of the usb dropout problems. I just got a firewire cable for my external WD hard drive, and already had a powered usb hub for the serato box.

Just wondering if anyone is still having any problems when they use firewire instead of usb for the hard drive...?

Last gig I had to go to emergency CD's on lines 1 & 2, and had iTunes open as my 3rd input, at least was able to have all my songs...albeit without pitch control, etc.

Just have to vent about Mac and Serato as well:

Mac - WTF? I finally buy a mac and this one doesn't perform like all the previous generations?

Rane/Serato - WTF? Usb 1.1? That's like using 3/4 inch video tape. Get with the times. You're the pre-eminent dj software, the industry standard...hook up the 2.0!

Party on

DJ THC Electra
www.exxxplosivo.com

remeber a USB HUB can cause alot more issues then plugging into the USB port on the computer.. Were you using the hub that night? just plug into the other USB port on your comp with the SSL box and you should be ok!

i dont see how if the mbp can't even provide the sl1 that's usb1.1 , how increasing the usb/bw usage will "fix" the problem lol

There are many SL-1 units in use that (probably?) cannot be easily upgraded to USB 2.0.

Therefore 'upgrading to 2.0' does not solve the problem.

It currently looks like the only solution is that Apple fixes their USB 1.1 compatibility problems.

Guys, I don't wanna be the partycrasher, but you're all speculating on things that you and I don't really understand.
1. Moving SL1 to USB 2.0 is imposible, cause this would mean that all of us would have to buy a new SL-box.
2. It still isn't clear if Apple has problems with all USB 1.1 devices, cause this would mean that USB mice and keyboards would cause the same problems.
3. Wait for Tiger 10.4.9, if Apple hasn't fixed the USB problems with the new release, we are all fucked up.

For now there are only the two known workarounds.

1. Use the good port.

2. Create new user with no startup items, and use both ports. You may still get the blinking USB light but no hearable dropouts.

dropouts of milliseconds are not noticable when using an usb mouse.. but when u are using an audio device they are!!

creating a new user didnt help at all..

wtf?

Yeah, but if going to the usb2 box would fix the problem, then maybe rane/serato would offer it at a very low price if you trade in your usb1 sl1, I know i would pay it if it fixed the issue

that would be a confirmation for apple to keep on selling crappy products..

I wouldn't say that it is a crappy product, I love the macbook's that I have, I think they are great machines, I'm not trying to defend Apple, I think this whole usb issue is bullshit but I certainly wouldn't say that my macbook is crappy just because of this issue. If the SL1 was USB2, we may have never knew this problem exists (if a usb2 sl1 prevented the usb issue) Apple is not supporting usb1 which is BS but kind of understandable being that very little companies still use usb1.1. It's like Dell taking away all the ps2 ports on desktops. If you had a ps2 keyboard that you like, you now have to buy a new one or an adapter to work with it

What are you on about? Every usb mouse/keyboard in existence is usb 1.1. USB 2.0 is not needed in these devices.

I'd expect a solution from Apple but like I mentioned before, it may be awhile as they track down the vendors who supplied parts, drivers, etc.

thats false.. my Logitech mice i use are USB2.0 and the logitech keyboard is too.

funny this thread keeps re-appearing with this very serious, upset sounding, panic-like header. So you'll call them Monday hey?

Whatever.

Please guys stop posting ideas how Serato should convert the SL1 box to USB2.0, it makes *no* sense at all, and the costs would be ridiculously high. This ain't gonna happen.

i dont think they need to convert.. 2.0 is supposed to be backwards compatable with no issues... im just saying dont post up false statements about other things.

I didnt mean you in person. Just reading this hypothesises about how switching to USB 2.0 would fix all problems etc makes me go nuts ;)

Yeah, buy something as small as a mouse or keyboard that needs very little data draw can still get away using usb1, Like I said, I'm not trying to defend Apple by any means, I'm just trying to clarify some info that Apple has relayed directly to me.

buy=but

If you read the thread, the title was not made to sound like a "panic" as you would call it, It meant that I would like some of the other users to do tests so when I called Apple I would have solid info to give them from multiple laptop tests.

Nik39, I can understand the cost being high, But please explain to me how this makes no sense, If you plug in a usb2 device it runs on a seperate bus as the keybaord/trackpad, therefore, you would most likely not get the keyboard and trackpad dropout when you touch it after 10 seconds. The reason you get it now is because the SL1/usb1 box stays on the 12mbs bus along with the keyboard, if it was usb2, it would run on a seperate bus.

It makes no sense cause it would mean to re-engineer the SL1, MP4, TTM57SL, which I don't think is going to happen. Maybe with a SL2 things would be different, maybe.... even then think about the additional costs. Its not like that you could just swap out a "USB" chip and that's it. Esp. since this is "simply" ( over exagerrated ;) ) a software issue.

Someone needs to kick Steve Jobs into the... you know.

LOL,,,gotcha, was not sure what part you were referring to when you said "it makes no sense". Makes sense now, thanks

you sure about that? I took a look at the logitech site... even their G7 gamer mouse is full speed usb.

Mac OS X 10.4.9 is available through Apple Software Update. I doubt that there is a fix for the USB dropout problem! But go ahead and try it everybody and report back...

oh snap!

when i get home, ill DL the final version!

i know the developer versions did NOT have a fix...so we'll see.

Nope,,,no fix. :-(

seriously.

the fuck man.

yup,,,,,WTF!!!!!

dude. someone should try taking their lappy back and be like "um, it doesnt work right" because in reality, it doesnt. Maybe that might get it through their heads to fix their shit.

I am freakin waiting for this problem to be solved to purchase my next laptop...but my patience is wearing thin! Apple gonna loose a lot of us!

its not that big of a deal.. just use the other port and your good to go!! that will work till they finaly get off there asses... for them they see it as 90% of the peeps who own them want longer batt life.. so keyboard goes to sleep to consrve energy.. 10% are having the issues... whats the logical thing for them to do.... go with the 90%.. hate to say it but thats the way buissness works! you cant always make everyoe happy... but you try to make most of them happy

ok guys sorry for the ignorance, ive been trying 2 read through the entire the thread (its too damnn long) and i just wanna be 100% sure...
im buying an MBP (c2d, 2.16, 1gbram blah blah blah), will i be able to use serato 100% jst like i am right now on my pc. and if i need a work around wat is it?? i dont want ANY issues while im gigging. if there is a possibility of an issue during live performace i simply wont buy one.
thanks guys,

we should all take a lawyer together and let them pay millions for selling a broken product

raji_k:

Use the left port on your MBP and you will have no problems! I have a MBP C2D with no problems when using the left port. Supernice laptop in all other ways :P

@ raji_k:

You will have dropouts when you adjust the screen brightness, even when you use the 'good' USB port.

You can use the work-around described below to avoid adjusting the screen brightness accidently and getting a dropout (which can happen because the keys for selecting cue points are directly below the brightness keys).

Andy W from Serato wrote previously in this thread:

"Accidentally pressing the hardware function keys can be avoided by checking "Use the F1-F12 keys to control software features" in the Keyboard & Mouse preferences dialog, this reverses the effect of the 'Fn' key, but that's about all that can be done until Apple come through with a fix for this."

I never touch the screen brightness on my PowerBook... it adjusts for me. The MacBook Pros have ambient light sensors and backlit keyboards... which is one advantage of the Pro models...

I mean the temporary fix is great, but this issue has been going on for too long... dropouts are a serious issue, and cause alot of pain for dj's especially when they happen often. One of the two parties has to take responsibility for the problem and fix it, instead of waiting for the other to act on it. If this means refunds to all macbook users, or either a firmware or software update that fixes it so be it. If it requires that an sl2 be created, with usb 2.0 support then so be it, and we either recieve discounts or a replacement plan for our troubles then let it be(Cost at this point Nik39 is negotiable, it is up to the engineers to find a way to create the product using new technology and keep it affordable). The point is that as users we expect and exceptional product, and I really enjoy serato scratch live, and I applaud the efforts of rane to respond to our comments, have great tech support, free upgrades, etc. At the same time, if there is a flaw that causes many users grief and may hurt their job, this makes an expensive product seem useless. Ppl may say well go back to vinyl and cd, but the product was purchased to avoid all of the hassle of carrying vinyl and time needed to burn new cd's, as well as the weight associated with them. I am thankful for serato, but i hope that things are really in the works to fix this problem, i hope that its not put on the side until apple decides to fix it, which may be never... just a bit frustrated...

Has anybody tried the replacement trackpad driver?

www.versiontracker.com

^^^ Nope spinthis

but i will when i get home!

What about the new apple update? I cannot check it right now,because i gave serato to a friend.
still drop-outs??

just installed new update.

doesnt help the dropout.

the dropout still happens with 10.4.9

this sucks and i won't care anymore as this won't be solved..
and honestly i blame serato for not implenting USB 2.0 which is industry standard

it ain't

^^

daim, that's doesnt make sense.

lol.

i wouldn't call usb 2.0 industry standard since a lot of -new- audio products still are build with usb 1.x


and serato couldnt know in the past that apple was going to build new laptops which only work with usb 2.0 ..no other company ever had such issues (because no other company is caring more about image than making their products work)

Lol :)

Hey everyone, I have just spent the last couple of hours reading this thread, and I find it to be very usefull for someone like myself who is new to MAC and Serato. I know my way around pretty well around a PC based studio, software and hardware alike, but I seem to have hit a roadblock just getting this Serato MAC thing to run.
If it is not the right place to post any help on my issue please direct me to where I could go...
NEW MACBOOK 2.0
SERATO 1.6 installed
plug in USB...
MAC crashes when Serato is opened
USB Over Current Notice when it is not opened

any help is greatly appreciated

LOL...common apple you are missing out on potential customers

bump...

Hm.. I tried to install it, after restarting and going to systemsettings to adjust the driver, it tells me I need to restart my Mac, which I did then... then the message appears again. :-(

Great.

ok i blame both apple and serato but i won't care anymore as the second port works fine and i don't have time for stuff like that.

and as i said somewhere above i remember the dude telling me firewire is completely overrated (which is kinda true) and not necessary (while crappy FS already had firewire) and now serato hasn't even USB 2.0!
if it's not industry standard it will become that pretty soon..
such a good product and serato wasn't able to think a little bit ahead and implent 2.0?
just look at the speed..if this was a price question for serato i would understand but i doubt it.

have fun solving this:P

OMG!!!! That SideTrack program works on my Macbook. No dropouts on the left USB port! I repeat, no dropouts on the left/bad USB port. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself but initial tests look good. Will post video later.

Great news as a temp fix and something to look forward to till something offical comes out, good to hear it working for those who can use the driver(with the laptop compatible and not produced after october 2006)

Most of these dropouts I'm reading about occurs when the program is actually running, right? Has anyone heard of the problem I'm having? ... both ports are giving me "USB Over Current Notice"
Am I missing a basic setting somewhere?

George, please stop that "USB 2.0" nonsense. It was a price question, this has been posted by a moderator. The speed arguement is null because SSL simply does not need USB 2.0 speed.


Konix, how old is your MBP?

I have a Core Duo 1, not 2, bought in August 06. I've been testing more the last hour and half and still couldn't get a dropout in SSL or Torq. I think we have a winner here.

so mucho thanks to SpinThis! for suggesting that program.

first, everyone should stop the usb 2.0 jabber. if they don't then i'll have to make a seperate thread explaining why usb 2.0 for the sl-1 is NOT going to happen (and shouldn't).

secondly, BriChi or someone familiar with the current state of the usb macbook pro problem should start a seperate thread with a concise summation of all the knowledge gathered in this thread. i'd do it, but i don't think i'm the best guy for it (i don't have a macbook).

either way, for new users coming just trying to find out if ssl will work on their system, this is a lot of information to sift through.

just a suggestion.

Macbook or Macbook Pro?

Macbook, sorry.

ok i'll stop..hope sidetrack works,thanks for that!

thank god i have a powerbook.

where can I go? What thread? I'm freaking out!!!
I have over 8 thousand records and thought this must be the right way to go.
You would think this is simple plug n play but boy was I wrong. Any suggestions??

May I ask what on Earth are you talking about?

Yep Konix, we really got that guy confused. Whatever, I'm trying SideTrack right now, I haven't used SL with it yet, but did anyone of you notice that you don't have that usual delay with the brightness and volume controls. You know, before using sidetrack, I always had a short delay sometimes even sound-dropouts when I used the brigthness and volume Controls. I'll plug my SL1 box in and give it a try.

It's plug and play as long as you plug it in the right port! ;-)

If I was you I would be more worried about how to rip 8000 records to digital files...

Any news about sidetrack?

Yeah, it works on my Macbook. No more dropouts on the left/bad port. Hurray! Not that I use it though, I've gotten into the habit of always using the right port.

I would recommend the help section, as it sounds like your problems with getting everything going have nothing to do with the dropout issue that this thread is about.

this is the only problem

"""""""""""""NOTE: SideTrack is not yet compatible with Macbook and MacBook Pro models introduced after October 2006. See the News page for the latest information on beta testing.""""""""""""

Which both of mine are

^^ Might be worth testing... maybe drop them an e-mail explaining your situation... whatever code they're using, it seems to be better than Apple's "falling asleep" code eh?

I've contacted the author, he said they are beta testing and he didn't want to let me try it out.

stingy

:-(

nice try nik!

I'm gonna test that trackpad driver this weekend on my Macbook rev A to see if the OTHER usb port still dropsout or not... and if changing the brightness/volume affects either port. I will let you know my findings guys. And thanks for the sidetrack suggestion.

I've also had problems with my MIDI controller on the bad port not recognizing it (I couldn't have for example SSL connected on the good port, and the MIDI controller on the bad port at the same time) so I'll see if that's fixed too.

just to clarify:

*OTHER usb port I meant the "bad" port (closer to screen)
*the good port is the one closer to the headphones jack

sounds like we may have a winner

not really

Im not gonna have the time this week, but can someone do extensive testing with a pre october 2006 macbook/pro and give us the results. If they are good I guess we can say to apple, that we know its their drivers, since it works perfectly with xp, and sidetrack.

Heavy, Konix has already confirmed this. *Reading is fundamental*

Got it, Ne word from serato or rane, that this may be the way to go?
And Konix you said you were gonna post a vid, lemme know when u get that done.

OK, here it is...

video.google.com

kool,,,,thanx for the info konix

^^ haha that's classic diy Konix... * mac is restarting, pan back to konix * "might take a second to install...." * pan back to mac.

great info. my question is, why hasn't apple, or serato for that matter, come up with a new driver for the trackpad? and why havn't the sidetrack people come up with a version for the newer intell chips? what's the hold up? regardless, it's great to know that the problem might be completely resolved at some point in the future. until then, i'm fasting.... imagine?

yo

3 nights ago in miami, some idiot sprayed champagne on my computer while we were playing and it ruined my G4 12" ibook. we had been using it with serato all around the world for the past few years. the douche agreed to pay for a new computer for me and so i naturally wanted to get the new macbook in black cause it looks dope and works great... plus i cant really get a new ibook.

naturally, i came on here and read every single post that contained the word macbook and it scared me off buying it to some extent, but we are on tour with john digweed right now and we didnt have any options.

then i decided to start asking my friends who also play with serato about this problem youre all talking about.... and no one had ever experienced it. DJ AM, A-Trak, Flosstradaums (they use 2), Steve Aoki... i even got my boy to ask DJ Jazzy Jeff and they all said the macbook and macbook pro work perfectly with serato.

still last night we played with digweed and we were stressed as i set up my new macbook... still unsure if we would experience the USB dropout problem. it worked amazing, right from the first second. better than my ibook... faster and smoother and its better not to have a big white glowing square up in the booth for visual reasons too.

maybe the reason serato hasnt done anything about this problem is because not many people have experienced it? AM plays just about every night and he gave me his word that it would work perfectly... he uses the same one himself.

im not saying i doubt anything any of you have said, im just wondering if you are going out of your way to create the dropout or if there is something else youre doing wrong? the macbook works amazing. i didnt make a new user, i didnt run in safe mode... none of it. i just played like i would have with my ibook and there was absoloutley nothing wrong with it. to be sure, i set it up again today in the club and tried my best to make it happen... but still nothing could fuck it up.

my 2 cents.


j f k
mstrkrft.com

jsut a quick Q jfk...

what port were you plugged into, on your macbook?

and yeah, the dropout is REALLY quick, but its still there and DEF shouldnt be there!

so yeah, if your plugged into the USB port furthest from the FIREWIRE port, then that port doesnt get the drop out issue.

on the flipside, if your plugged into the port closest to the Firewire, then load up a track then let it play for about 15 seconds then touch the track pad...

keep your ears open, cause it is there!

give that a go, then let us know how its goin

Hey JFK, I saw AM a couple of weeks ago and he uses the left port of the 15" pro, That port works fine. Did you get the 15" pro? if so, try this:

1. Put the SL1 on the right side usb port
2. put you ssl usb buffer on 2 and hit apply
3. go back to the normal ssl screen, wait about 15 seconds and then touch the trackpad and see if the USB light appears on the top of the ssl screen

If you have the White or Black Macbook (not the pro), Try the same steps above but test it with the usb port closest to the Apple power connector

It is still a very annoying problem but during a gig is there anyone who can't just use the good port? You can connect your external harddrive or similar devices to the bad port. Enlighten me if I have missed some scenario where you must use the bad port for Scratch LIVE!

Big up for everybody who make efforts to solve this problem!

the most common scenario: record ur mix with an external usb soundcard

or sync ableton live to scratch live with the redsound soudbite and an external usb soundcard

grrr.. soundbite even

do the steps that brichi and cutrix suggested, and you should get the drop out. maybe you won't. this is highly unlikely though. there is the "good port/badport" work around. and there is also the f key reversal in your keyborad preferences, to keep the screen dimmer off, which was also causing usb drop outs. some people don't seem to notice the small audible pop, that goes along with the keypad related usb dropout. my boy DJ Jus Ske. Pharrrell's DJ (gratuitous name dropping) sometimes forgets to put the usb cable in the good port and doesn't seem to notice the pop it causes on his black intel core2 duo macbook. i do. i noticed it when i first bought my new macbook. that's why i returned it, somewhat drastic measures, i know. but, i have a g4 macbook pro that works perfectly, no matter what usb port i use. good thing, since i'll be djing with DJ Clue, for Timbaland's record release party this thurs (more name dropping)
I'm just being a dick... but , i have a problem with a product that is supposed to be the next generation, better than before, jump off and it has this major (in my mind) problem. i'm waiting till it's gone. just out of principle. i am a bit of a tek head too, so i like to be up on as much info as possible as it relates to what equipment i use and how it effects it's overall operation. unfortunately, newer is not always 100 percent better. also, i would suggest using an I skin, or something like it. they are the rubber covers for your keyboard. i use one on my laptop. i call it my "drunk bitch gaurd". there are too many stories of people having there laptops ruined because some drunk bitch spills are sprays their drink on someone's keyboard. they are pretty effective. i mean you can't go swimming with your laptop if you have one on your keyboard, but it would protect from most spilling and spraying. if someone shook up a bottle of champagne and sprayed it, nascar winner, style, right on my laptop, it might not protect my computer. but it would give me time to drop kick whoever had the bright idea to do such a dim witted thing. but the keyboard cover is a great way to help protect and maybe buy you a little time to get your laptop out of harms way. good luck. let us know if you could get the drop out... join our little usb drop out cult!

Ok, I get it Daim! Thanks!

HEY WAIT! I have a powerbook (12in) and have the same stutter problem...but it only happens when two tracks are playing (kinda). Anyone have any ideas.. more info here:
scratchlive.net

Please - ANY HELP would be great.. I'm supposed to spin in a few hours and can't figure it out..

In the meantime, I'm going to see if the trackpad... but I don't recall having this problem when I move the cursor (via trackpad)... Sometimes when I drag a new song onto a deck.. sometimes when I try to play the new song..

Details and versions -- etc.. all in the link above..

PLease.. - any help would be grreat.
Kwame

fair enough everybody. i watched the video someone made of it happening and like i said before, i totally believe all of you. i actually havnt tried it yet on the 'bad' usb port i guess. i did try using a usb drive on the bad port and serato in the good port and it managed to play without a problem. do you need to have the USB buffer set to 0 to see it happen?

my real problem with serato is that it doesnt sound as good as CDs made from the same sound files. the box should be re-done in USB-2 because its the new standard, and it should be a real DA converter like in a studio, or at least give it digital outs so you can use the digital ins on a djm800.

2 more cents


j f k