I absolutly agree. I'm tired of using timecode without being able to use the 5500 to it's full potential. With native support, there is no doubt in my mind that Scratch Live paired with the 5500 will be the ultimate combination for mobile and club DJs everywhere. WE NEED NATVE SUPPORT!!!

Yup, where is the 5500 Native Support?

A $2000 MEP controller that nobody has gets support before the 5500?

From what I have seen, there are plenty of people waiting for full support for the 5500 (as well as other Denon decks). It's rather disappointing Serato has yet to come through for Denon users. :(

Agree with this too, one of the main reasons I purchased the 5500 is the midi and upcoming native support, Hopefully it will be soon, or at least a mod give us an idea of whats going on. Are you working on it? is there issues with it? will it ever happen?

I am waiting for full 5500 native support in SSL, as well. For now, its timecode on a flash drive.... such a shame I can't take advantage of MIDI on the deck OR SSL. This has been an outstanding request for quite some time and I would hope gets prioritized over some of the more obscure devices that are getting support. Thanks.

hum hum... a few months ago... We have asked the native support for HC4500... It's done since.... if we could have to choice... i prever a non-native connection because we can use midi learn.
A simple example... with native support..the pitch of HC 4500 is +8% / -8%...so we can't use +16% / -16% anymore... Just think about it :-)

I have been waiting since rumors of version 1.8.3 to see you guys offer native support for the 5500's.... it seems to me that there is a clear need for this. Also with the advent of yet another Denon contoller ( 3700) with a spinning platter it stands to reason that your resources will not be wasted programming code to natively support these pieces as they seem to be the future. First thing first, I beseech you ....Native Support for the 5500s! Timecode is Plaaaaayyed Out!! ;-)

As another HS5500 owner, this would be a killer feature

While you are adding native support for the HS5500, you also might look at the brand new and ground braking DN-S3700. Adding support for these models will bring you a ton of additional Live customers.

I also would like to see native support for this superior player.

I am VERY hopefull that Scratch Live will make native support available for the 5500 as well as the 3700 in the very near future. I was told that the native support would work on both the 5500 and the 3700 as they are simular. Can not wait to put the powerhouse combo of the new 3700 and Scratch Live togehter.

The 55 is a great device and should be supported.

bump

well guys, im actually selling both my 5500's because I love the 4500 and want to lighten my setup a bit for mobile work. I will still pull for native support with ya though :)

Soo, no reply, no explanation, no information, no nothing.

This is a pretty piss poor way to run a business in a recession. Or have all the mods been laid off.

As far as the unit goes, it has tons of midi potential and very few competitors with decent support for it, if you guys backed it I'd instantly add Serato to my set up because it is the best software I've looked at thus far. Instead I have to continue using the unit in stand alone (which isn't bad) but I've already capped my files at the 50k max and could also use a better way to navigate such a large music base.

But so far you guys are letting the team down.

I definitely agree with all the posters. I have been a dedicated denon user for years. My lastest purchase was the 3500's and now im looking to upgrade to the NEW DENON 3700's (CHECK IT OUT DJ's THEY BLOW THE PIONEER CDJ's OUT THE WATER). But it sucks that you can use any of the great features with on these decks with serato. NATIVE SUPPORT PLEASE SERATO!!!!!

Come on Serato...at least give us a response as to what your plans are for this controller. There's a lot of us in the dark here that are loyaly sticking with your software. Keep a HUGE part of your clientele happy by at least responding to let us know you actually read these forums and are concerned about your customers wishes.

Sorry guys, I don't think we will see official support for the 5500 in the near future.

With all due respect.... Why?

Short of a tradeshow, I have never seen a Pioneer MEP in the real world... yet, native support for it was somehow rationalized.

Will it be available anytime soon on the new denon dn-s3700?

(Please say yes so I can get a reason to trade in my 5500) :o)

WOW...this is gonna upset a lot of people as well as leave us all scratching our heads. VERY disapointed Serato. VERY!!

What? WHY?

At the very least, bring PLATTER (& knob) support. We can MAP our own buttons.

This is very very disappointing news.

The reason is that the motorized platters present fairly major technical hurdles to overcome, and so the development work is pretty extensive - development time that could be used to improve other areas of the software.

Like I said, the answer is not necessarily never, but if it does happen, it won't be for a while.

In terms of MEP 7000, it is very close to the CDJ-400 code, and so the development time was fairly trivial in comparison.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news

Yet motorized platters are supported for the Numark NS7 with Serato Itch (AKA SSL Lite).....

That's exactly what I was thinking. ???

I don't get it... you guys can support those two, yet the Denon platter is too hard to do? Come on, the Denon platter utilizes basic midi command from my understanding.

There must be another reason why you guys are not working on it.

Other programs (like reflex) was able to get is working without a problem), so I really doubt it's a technical issue on your end.

I'll tell you what though, if a person asks me what they should use with their decks, I'll be more inclined to suggest a program other than Serato. And if they ask me why, I'll tell give them this thread web link to read.

SSL and ITCH are different beasts, manufacturers making devices to ITCH specs is quite a dif thing then SSL supporting a device after the fact.

[Im also sad to hear that moving platter presents a problem]

I really don't agree with this response. I think the majority of the time SHOULD be spent on fulfilling the demands of your customers. The software is already at a good place as far as making improvements. There are always going to be demands for small improvements from a few users...but the matter at hand is there is a large community who have these state of the art controllers that are changing the world of playing live music and the leader in DJ software is doing nothing to satisfy this ONE demand we are all asking for. I think this should be your TOP priority rite now and I bet I'm not the only one who feels the same.

I feel the same. Maybe Serato Audio Research sould try working closely with Denon, the same way that PCDJ didwith Reflex. Or better yet, the way that Serato worked hand in hand with Numark in creating the NS7.

Just a thought.

"motorized platters present fairly major technical hurdles" for SSL, but not ITCH aka ITCH support would/should come first

if I were selfish I would demand that ZERO effort go into support for the 5500 ever, because I for one, nor the majority of DJs will ever use it.

The majority of DJs have never experienced a MIDI motorized platter. Think about it. No more wear and tear on needles and vinyl. No more calibrations. Free your PC from interpreting the audio signal in. Use the audio INS on the SSL box to record your set. Instant Hot Cues, Loops, and Effects (Loop Rolls) all at your fingertips.

All the craze now is MIDI controllers. But DJ's are still using CD/Vinyl time code. Instead of using Turntables and an oversized ugly controller, why not just use one controller to do it all. DN-HS5500 or DN-S3700. People ask me all the time where my CD timecode is to control SSL for the DN-HC4500.

How could one guy offer MIDI support for his program djdecks.be but Serato can't?

Serato can, and does, its called ITCH.

I wont use a DN-HS5500 because the platter is small and unstable compared to the 1200.

just curious on what you mean by unstable, i have to of them and they are solid, stable decks

I have the 5500 and they are always dead on. AKIEM, what about the new DN-HS3700 with a 9" platter? The 3700 & 5500 share the same MIDI commands for the Platter.

www.skratchworx.com
Preview www.skratchworx.com

meant "two of them"

"I wont use a DN-HS5500 because the platter is small and unstable compared to the 1200."


The 5500 is a very stable deck. When someone says the kind of thing, a person has to wonder why.

You did mention that the platter is small, but it's size is not an issue for most people (besides, the Pio MK series uses the same size... do you find those decks "unstable" as well?).

As mentioned already, the 3700 has a bigger platter, and supporting the 5500 would also benefit the 3700 (a two for one deal). Btw, Gizmo (from Skratchworx) likes the new 3700. Do you know how many scratch guys visit that forum? (I'm pretty sure Serato realizes this), and imo it would only benefit Serato the long run if they got the Denon platter working via midi.


Btw, I was just thinking about the response from Mike M... from my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong here), but doesn't he work for RANE? If yes, I for one would rather hear a response about our MIDI platter question from a Serato employee/developer.

Serato needs to take the leap of faith....and consider their potential position in the dj software realm. By supporting the 55s/37s platter and screen solidly, who's gonna' look elsewhere. Heck, summons the gizmolab guys since they broke away from PCDJ( if i have this right) and put them on staff to get this platter/screen issue completed.

maybe a little radical, but just a thought.

well let me back peddle a little from my statement. Im not sure which Denon decks that I played with and thought the platters to be 'unstable'. Or even - Ive never touched a Denon deck in my life and just made it up completely. Which wouldnt mater this way or that, because Im not trying to review the deck or have any ill will towards Denon or anyone who uses the product. I was simply trying to make a point - Its not going to be used by EVERY DJ.

So it doesnt really matter if its the best deck ever created, or If I personally like it or not because "motorized platters present fairly major technical hurdles".

It makes more sense (to me) trying to talk to Denon about a making an ITCH controller.

Wow, alots been taken out of my mouth lol. So I'll just lay down a few points:

1. I guess you must have a point on the platter (perhaps denons works a little different to the ns7) other wise there would be a lot more native support out there for us generally. But although this represents a hurdle it means it can also become an opportunity to soak market share where your competitors have failed.

2. These new gen of players coming out of denon ARE world class and as double a has pointed out the coding between the 55 and 37 would be fairly similar (prob identical for the platter) so like the mep and cdj 400 you'd be most likely be putting yourselves in a good position for for any future denon dj hardware.

So why not put in the yards now, take pretty much the entire denon midi market before any competitor even has decent support and be in a good position to support future denon products also. (Your kiwis, your smart)

3. Like serato, denon has been investing in R n D in these tough economic times. this totally demonstrates a companys commitment to the future of dj'ing. Denons controllers WILL start taking market share, there too good not to and I'm sure dj's will start leaning towards a hardware company with better R n D, better hardware (If you can argue this point I'd be impressed) and much much better support (in fact serato could learn a thing or two in this department). So you know get in there and crouch, pause, touch, engage guys! ffs lol

4. As someone else has already pointed out, can there be no collaboration between the two company's? I'm sure to a point Denon would be glad to help (after all they have already stated there not going to produce there own djs).

5. For me personally, this is a deal breaker. I love your software but I need to get my business running in midi (taking what I can get in other words) my library is larger than 50k, no matter how good I tag I need better navigation.

Getting the best hardware together with the best software is just a far to tasty proposition for us not to annoy you guys in your forums.

As far as an ITCH controller goes, I think that'd involve Denon sharing machine code. Something I don't think they'd do.

The 55/37 platters use regular MIDI code(there is no "machine code" from what I understand that would hinder them from getting things moving). In the end it's up to Serato to implement the rotating platter control via MIDI. Another program was able to do it, so it's not impossible.

So I guess if we didn't push for an explanation, people reading this thread would of probably believed what you wrote. Gee, how can anyone not take your previous comments as not being "ill willed". :rolleyes:

Anyway, this thread was started to show Serato that there's LOTS of interest for support of the spinning 37/55 platters.

Btw, there are lots more people wanting support for these platters. You can read their posts on forums like... DJ Chat, JyMix, Denon DJ Forums (just to name a few)... not to mention the countless people that Denon has talked to at the various shows since the 5500 came out.


I think DJ BOBBYDEE said it best...



I completely agree with that statement. Now lets see if Serato steps up to the plate for us.

I didnt feel "pushed". I think I was asked for an explanation, which I gave.

If anyone read, and blindly put stock in the one unwarranted word I said thus causing them to make bad decisions, I would say 'thats on them'

but obviously we dont have to deal with that since I made a retraction. so what?... bfd

If you want to believe that my opinion is is the result of having some kind of beef with Dennon / users, fine... your error, your loss.


I think you guys are just kinda glossing over Nick M's explanation "motorized platters present fairly major technical hurdles to overcome, and so the development work is pretty extensive".

Im pretty sure it would be a disaster for Serato to be explaining why its next releases are delayed because all attention is focused on this one deck if it would even work well enough in the first place. Suppose it sets back the next release six months, would that be acceptable?

SSL was not originally designed to meet this demand, and nether was midi.

Im disappointed by this news because it kills one pathway I thought could develop toward a deck that would have me give up the 1200


how much better is direct/midi platter control then control signal CD platter control?



Actually, the midi system was designed by Serato and the hardware controllers are built specifically to control ITCH.

Not a rotating platter DJ deck. Midi has been around for 25 years, long before any digital DJ decks. It was originally designed to just trigger keyboard notes, not track mechanical movement.



Well, I guess you are from a world full of hard cocks or whatever (might want to keep that to yourself.) Trust, Im not interested in ether one of those...



problem solved

Reflex was another DJ app programmed by 1 guy that got Native Support for a spinning platter. Exactly how much time does it take for a company to develop Native Support for this 1 feature? I'm learning C#, and ironically the smallest ideas seem to take the longest to program.

SSL & the Denon DN-HC4500 19" controller is tightest and arguably the best MIDI configuration out there. It's not the most feature rich (still need to MIDI the 3 effect buttons). But the professionalism is there! So either Serato has looked at the spinning platter and did some basic code and wasn't happy, or they just haven't bothered.

Richie-b is right. Serato needs to grab the largest DJ Company out there before anyone has a chance to look elsewhere.

Besides error updates, what other areas does SSL need to improve? BRING ON PLATTER SUPPORT for Denon.

You have to remember though... it's not just one deck. Yes, right now there is 1 (the 5500), but the second one (the new 3700) is coming out Feb 09. Denon is well know for their motorized platters, so for Serato to just look the other way, well imo, is basically telling people out there, that they are choosing to close the door on any other Denon deck that may come out in the future that has that great feature. If that isn't closing the door on future progress/advancements, I don't know what is. But on the other hand, they must have felt that a MIDI moving platter is the next logical step, or else why would they have taken their time with Itch?


Like Richie-b said before...



Exactly, and imo that segment of the DJ hardware world is just too huge of an opportunity to simply pass up or push to the side.

Serato has a golden opportunity here to take the bull by the horns, and until we hear otherwise from an actual Serato employee/developer on what their intentions are with support for this feature, I'm still optimistic.

As for...


\/ \/ \/



Btw, you asked...



Maybe you should head over to the Denon DJ Forums and ask the board members over there about their opinions on how well it worked with Reflex. ;) No need for control CD's or vinyl anymore. No need to worry about wearing out discs/records. No needles or cue burn to worry about... (just to name a few things).

If you want to see what you can do with the time code signal being pulled directly from a USB thumb drive or hard drive, all someone has to do is look no further than the DJ expo video with DJ shy.

Watchca.youtube.com


Midi control would be even tighter than that.

Time code (whether it's on a record, cd, thumb drive, or hard drive) is old school. Direct MIDI control is the next logical step forward in the advancement of our DJ profession. I truly beleive Serato knows this, and Denon users will eventually get what we want in terms of native control. I just hope it's sooner rather than much later.

Again, I think this comment says it best.
\/ \/ \/

Well stated Double_A

exactly, ITCH is second generation to SSL.

let me restate:
Im pretty sure it would be a disaster for Serato to be explaining why its next releases are delayed because all attention is focused on these couple decks if it would even work well enough in the first place since "motorized platters present fairly major technical hurdles"


There is a 'Serato' logo next to Nick Ms name.


\/ \/ \/



Really? So after Denon support its done, everyone can go home? :)

A. Ive got a nice list of improvements and features.
B. Many other DJs have lists of their own
D. Serato has a nice list
c. Who ever heard of an application being 'complete'?

1.9 and thats it?

I fear none of the staff would live to see the end of the day it was announced.



Im not asking about the benefits over turntables. I am asking, how great of a difference is direct control compared to cd control. Is there a performance difference, does it track better, less errors etc?



sorry, but Im not really seeing anything 'better' then when using the Serato CD.




I agree, direct control is the next step, control signal is the last. Probably the reason ITCH was developed to better facilitate midi control instead of trying to patch it on to SSL which it was not originally designed for. SSL was designed for tracking control signal, not midi



I would like to see Denon develop a deck without a cd drive and a larger platter.

Yes, well put Mr AA



Meh... Go buy better bait.



No problem solved will be when many different djs apps support the 55, giving users 'choice'



Really? wheres your thread requesting such things (I couldn't find it, not on the first page anyway) maybe you should spend more time bumping your own request threads.



Your the only one complaining in this thread, maybe other dj's have seen the 37 demo's and think "hey that actually looks like a frigging choice unit, maybe Serato native support wouldn't be such a bad idea"



Yes and good on them, no company should ever view there product as 'complete' and should always be looking to improve. All I'm saying is "Hey Serato, how bout throwing 55 and 37 native support on that list" at least it's an improvement that would expand there market. It wouldn't take 6 months either (Serato is made and developed by New Zealanders, nuff said)



Your right, but lets make improvements that move dj'n forward and not just improvements that keep you on the tech 12's forever. Dude go down to your local shop and try these players out at least and try and get a feel for what were trying to do here. I mean hey say that you love them! Wouldn't you love it even more if it worked with the software that you love "like it was made for it".

By taking timecode out of the process you are decreasing latency. Instead of processor power being consumed by constant, frenetic interpretation of imperfect analog audio signals (which have already gone through several degrading D/A and A/D conversions depending on your hardware combination) to determine position tracking and speed, MIDI cuts all of that out. You are no longer bogging things down with doing this for TWO simultaneous sources when you go the MIDI route. You are now sending direct "commands" to the software in a pristine digital manner that leaves no room for error or misinterpretation.

Thanks DJ Crazy Graig and Richie-b, at least some people here understand.

As for...



PM Mike and ask him who he actually works for.

That's why I mentioned...

I meant to say PM Nick (not Mike). sorry.

In respect:

Why would Rane support a low end company like numark? numark is in the same level as gemini products - entry level units. Maybe Rane is looking to break into the entry level users, but please dont forget us advance users. im sure many of us can agree that industry standard companies like Technics (club djs), Pioneer (club/private), and Denon (private/club) should deserve full support. Media players (ie. 5500/3700) should get full support because they are the future in mixing hardware (mixers) with software (Serato).

I myself is a well established mobile/private dj with 6 full sets, always looking for the most advanced stable units. all units is powered with SSL units. Ive used the 4500 at GC and it was awesome using it the way it should have been used.


So lets all play the waiting game...i guess.

btw: serato rocks LOL

Just to be fair.... Rane is the hardware manufacturer and Serato is the software manufacturer. Rane has nothing to do with the Itch product. Just like Serato collaborated with Rane, they are now collaborating with Numark and Stanton to come up with an hardware/software solution.

But, if you substitute "Serato" for "Rane" in your comments.... then we're good. :-)

Some of them have been implemented, some of them dont make sense anymore, and some of them (Ive been told) cant/wont be done for technical reasons similar to here. maybe you could bump a couple of them for me, even argue against them. I would appreciate it.

Split Cue serato.com
Loop Back serato.com
Controller serato.com
9" Faceplate serato.com
Skip to Loop serato.com
Song Preppend serato.com
Clock Sticker serato.com
Crate Notes serato.com
I think this is my favorite serato.com
This ones especially relevant serato.com

So please, by all means present the arguments. And if thats not enough, Ive got plenty more.




I thought I was arguing, not complaining
the fact still remains that there are lots of wants and needs besides this issue, many of which are important to all users. and to most users this issue has no bearing at all. the point being, dropping everything else to make this work sounds like a bad move




how do you know that it wont take six months?





I would like to move beyond the 1200 but dont want to go the cd deck route. I have already decided against a small platter and will hold out against one as long as possible. While hopping for standard size platter. So it doesnt mater how good they are to me, they dont fit my wants/needs.

I understand, and agree which is why even if originally not a supporter of ITCH, now see the benefits and a reason for it.

But my original question was more about the end performance result. For example, would there be a difference in a blind test between a deck using direct midi compared to a deck using a control signal CD?


Because as far as I can see the ONLY thing gained is not having to pop in a cd.


Also, might not the above mentioned benefits be lost in overcoming whatever technical difficulties getting it to work with SSL, especially when there is ALREADY a parallel system designed from the ground up to fully take advantage of direct midi control?

So, a little confused... you understand and agree with my answer to what the difference is and then state that I didn't answer the original question....

So, to be clear and simplify on the "performance result" of doing MIDI: LESS LATENCY (AKA faster response time/no lag) and LESS ERRORS (No misinterpreted time code positioning)



Uhm, see above.


No. I *believe* the "technical difficulty" that is being referred to comes down to this:
A non-motorized MIDI platter doesn't send any relative positional changes over MIDI. So, when play is activated in SSL (in MIDI mode), it will continue playing with no MIDI siginaling intervention until something interrupts it (stop, platter movement, etc.) With a motorized platter, you have a constant stream of MIDI relative platter positioning/speed information that essentially drives the playback. This is a good portion of the challenge in supporting both paradigms.

Having said that, they have already solved this issue because Itch supports both motorized (NS7) and non-motorized platters (VCI-300). So, the domain knowledge of how to accomplish this is already in-house.

Right, because I was talking about the end result, not the process. For example you can have two systems who (for the user) perform equally as well but one is way more efficient then the other.

Or if you could get it to perform equal to ITCH, how much more (or less) latency would there be compared with SSL? Can anyone tell the difference?

If the gain is hardly perceptible...




Is there a latency issue with these decks? What amount of latency improvement would you expect?

Im not saying it is impossible to make an improvement, I am asking how much of an improvement, how noticeable of an improvement might you expect? How much are you looking for? An amount, a value, an estimation....

But isnt it possible that there might not be an improvement, there might in fact be more latency? (see below for how this is possible)





Uhm, see above.


And I agree with you again. But what you are saying doesnt explain why the "technical difficulty" could not be such that it would perform with less then desirable results.

Analogy: If you tell me that Digital Recording sounds better then Analog Recording, I will certainly agree with you all day and advocate Digital for the future. But I also know that really no mater how high of a bitrate you encode your cassette tape at, you arnt going to make it sound all that better.





Okay, and how was it solved?
First, its not regular MIDI, its some kind of special doubled MIDI. Can the 5500s software be upgraded to stream ITCH type double MIDI? maybe not. Second, SSL was built from the ground up to work with 'control signal' while ITCH was built from the ground up to work with supper MIDI. Might there not be a pretty big problem getting SSL to retrofit a system that it wasnt originally designed to run. plus look at the redundancy, both programs perform all the same functions? Third, ITCH hardware is built to specifically work with the software, probably because the hardware has to work in away that encodes movement into the special ITCH type double MIDI resolution. Isnt it possible that the hardware has to be built to certain specifications and thats another way the "technical difficulty" was overcome, was through hardware? Maybe normal encoders can not output the higher resolution that ITCH protocols require. Maybe the chip that processes the rotary information has to send information according to certain ITCH protocol, physically different then the type of chips in regular decks. It was a hardware solution, not software.

If the hardware is already built, its too late, like what you get on a cassette.

Overall what Im saying is that it is possible that there are both software and hardware limitations. And the cost to overcome those outweighs the benefits, perhaps vastly. So logically it is not being done.

Otherwise the reasons for not doing it are irrational or emotional, like they are scared, lazy, some type of animosity, ignorance or maybe superstition is keeping it from being done? Thats what some people seem to be suggesting.

This is the feature suggestions area

not the feature demands area

if Nick M says it's not coming anytime soon because it's too hard or impossible, then you lot aren't necessarily entitled to know all the details why...

what Denon and the other controller manufacturers need to do is determine an agreed protocol (consulting with Serato and NI) that ALL future controllers adhere to, and then they would all JUST WORK.

it's the same as Blu-Ray vs HDDVD, Internet Explorer Vs the WC3 and all the other BS format wars. The users end up being the victims.

so my advice is 'go and whinge to Denon'

kthnx bai

:P

Corse32. The fact that Serato added Native Support to the DN-HC4500 after us users requested it makes your comment null and void. J/K :) MIDI is the future though.

Ok boys and girls. It took some digging, but her is some technical information on MIDI vs. Analog by Denon DJ Brand Manager. www.prodjforums.com

Analog:
The analog time-code signal eventually becomes digital down the stream.
The rate of which it’s delivered to the computer system is determined by the buffer size.
The resolution is also measured by the buffer size/samples.

Digital:
MIDI on the other hand starts off by being digital already via USB without conversion and is determined by the number of ticks per jog resolution.
*In the case of the HS5500/HC4500, it offers 1480 ticks per full resolution.

Most computers cannot handle the min resolution of 1ms audio buffer size, so lets start with a more realistic number of 2ms, which is also what Serato uses as a start point.

And now the math...
Lets say an analog TT is running at the rate of 33.3 rpm using time-code vinyl. We said the start number for buffer size is set at 2ms for analog.


MIDI:
33.3 / 60sec = .555 rpm per sec of travel
.555 X 1480 (HS5500 pulse resolution per cycle) = 821 data updates sent to PC in 1sec

Time-Code:
33.3 / 60sec = .555 rpm per sec of travel
Most lowest practical buffer size for pro sound card is .002 sec (2ms, around 88 samples) of buffer, which = 500 data updates to PC per 1sec

MIDI in this example offers 39% better resolution than analog time code.
At 45rpm it gets even better for MIDI as the resolution data goes up, but on the analog side the buffer size stays the same at 500 data updates to PC per 1sec. For MIDI it becomes 54% better over analog time code at 45rpm.
Also the further up the scale you set your buffer size for analog, the worse the resolution becomes, while MIDI is always fixed (in Denon's case) at sending data in 1ms intervals.

Nice post.

So starting with 2ms latency for Analog (control signal CD) 50% better would be 1ms for MIDI. Thats a 1ms difference between the two. Exactly why I asked how much of an improvement are you guys going to see? All things being equal you gain 1ms.

And the question, could anyone tell the difference between a 5500 running the CD vs a 5500 running MIDI?

I doubt it.

can't you load the control signal via a flashdrive on the 5500, and bypass reading the CD?

yes u can

I personally don't worry too much about MIDI vs. timecode latency (even though I know for a fact that MIDI is better :oP )

My main reason for wanting native support is to control all of my loops/hotstarts that I made in Serato via the DN-S5500 (while still maintaining a spinning platter that I can scratch with while a track is in play).

I'm aware of the keyboard shortcuts but it's very easy to make a "typo" while doing a live set and could be quite embarrassing (depending on which wrong button you press). Aside from that, I don't remember all of the shortcuts and it just becomes a pain in the @$$ when you want to do something fast but can't remember which button to press.

Just yesterday I tried mapping the "Loop Roll" feature in the ScratchLive 1.9 beta to the knobs on my 5500 and it doesn't quite work right (it jumps from 1/32 to 32 with one click of the knob). I'm aware that it's a beta test and all of the functions may not work correctly, BUT they seem to work correctly on some other controllers (See here Watchwww.youtube.com).

I'm not a programmer so there's no way I can get that function working on my own... hence why native support is neccessary FOR ME :o)

I think the big advantage to midi is mapping the cue points right to the player, I use cue points a lot and now with the hc4500 that native to ssl, all my cue points are quickly accessible without have to touch the laptop, so now my habds are on the player and the mixer instead of always being all over between the mixer, the laptop, the cd player and scratching myself between mixes, lol

This doesn't change anything.... buffered from CD or buffered from flash drive, the timecode is still sent as an analog signal that has to be converted and processed by SSL.


They did. It's called MIDI.


I assume you mean WHINE... nobody hear is whining. We are presenting intelligent arguments for the inclusion of a popularly requested feature. You can label it "demands" or whatever, but I will not stoop to the level of childish bickering with people who obviously don't need for this feature, have their own agenda, or are just here to start trouble.

Denon has done everything they need to do. They have provided the hardware and they have an openly-available, MIDI-based mapping that anyone can write to.... the same as every other hardware vendor doing MIDI. THREE other software packages have managed to integrate timecode support, MIDI support, AND native support for the 5500 (and many other controllers), so I see no reason why the BEST software shouldn't either.

"hear" = "here"....I blame the antihistamines and decongestants... :-|

Because the BEST software was not originally designed to support MIDI. It was originally designed for Control Signal, MIDI is an 'add-on' and presents some problems. Those problems were solved by a combination of NEW software with NEW protocols, and NEW hardware configurations with new standards.

Has Denon done everything it needs to do? Is the 5500 designed to work with ITCH? I dont think it is (not that I believe thats a 'fault').


Here is an interesting bit of information, underlines mine
www.skratchworx.com


Notice that the MIDI used is double the resolution then regular, can the 5500 send out this double resolution MIDI??

Notice that the physical encoders are not the standard MIDI, can the 5500 encode 14-bits used for ITCH?

Back to SSL??
I think its an interesting coincidence that the 50% increase you are looking for with direct MIDI is also a 50% decrease from the Serato ITCH standard.

The 5500 already has two options CD control and solid state memory control and you guys are demanding another solution that very well at best (1ms area) is probably IMPERCEPTIBLE. To do it would be a step back from Seratos new standard ITCH, apparently take overcoming "fairly major hurdles", and create a situation where there is functionally little difference between the two applications.

it makes no sense





on the other hand, getting all the MIDI triggering to fire correctly seems like it should be dealt with.

We want a GOOD MIDI controller with a spinning platter to work with SERATO SCRATCH LIVE. Why doesn't that make sense. Why would we want to use timecodes anymore? If this is such a big hurdle, then why can 1 programmer get it to work (Reflex and djDecks)?



What BEST software are you talking about? Because SSL works wonderful on my MIDI controller DN-HC4500. It even picks up the digital 1480 ticks per full resolution for the jog disc.

Forget ITCH already. This is a SSL forum. Denon controllers will never work with ITCH. If they did, how would Serato make any money?

Cmon, I just got done explaining why it doesnt make sense to do. Yes it makes sense to want, I want it too. I dont want to spin time codes anymore ether.

I dont know why Reflex and djDecks can do it. Maybe it is because those two programs were designed from the ground up to work with MIDI while SSL was not designed from the ground up to work with MIDI. Obviously Serato has the ability to design a program that is controlled by MIDI, but maybe there are fairly major technical hurdles in retrofitting MIDI control to SSL because that was not what it was originally intended to.



When you said 'BEST', I thought you were talking about SSL, so when I said 'BEST', I was talking about SSL.

Really, you dont think there might be a difference between supporting a static jog wheel and a rotating motorized platter? One sits there not giving off any information unless you touch it, and the other continually streams information because it is constantly moving. They are not the same thing, they apparently need different solutions.



If Denon designed gear to work with ITCH, Serato would make money.

ITCH keeps beeing brought up because its clear that Serato can and will support a rotating platter deck, just like the other companies that keep being brought up. Its just that Serato has a different strategy for MIDI that includes a better system, and better equipment.



Again let me ask, how much improved performance do you think you would see with MIDI support?

it's an improvement none the less. The main thing for me I guess would be having all the decks features opened up.

Maybe one day Denon will make an ITCH player, but that doesn't really help us in this instance.

AKIEM could you please elaborate on this strategy?

Cheers.

howdy. just wanted to throw my support behind native support for the denon players and the spinning platter. the only reason i am still using tech 12's and not the denon 3700 or 5500 is that the lack of this feature is a deal breaker for me. i think that the time spent making this happen would create a feature that traktor is lacking and increase the ssl customer base to the point that it would be worth it.

so in short...

+1 for denon spinning platters

Here is part of message that was posted on the Denon forum by a well know Denon guy:

"Our MIDI protocol is wide open and public for any vendor to support freely.
The integration with Reflex has been the tightest so far (in my opinion).
I recall it took them only a few days and a few tweaks to get it pretty solid."

I guess you need to have a closer look at the Denon MIDI code for the spinning platters. I might not be as hard as you think and you would please a lot of Serato users.

Or maybe its a whole lot harder then you think because SSL was not originally designed with MIDI support in mind. It was designed specifically to work with Control Signal. Maybe at its very core it was built differently then Reflex. That is possible right?





I agree with you guys about getting all the MIDI triggers to function. What functions arnt working? If those worked I really cant see why that would be so much less then perfect.

Maybe a part of the disconnect here is people actually being more concerned about those functions when they are +1 for support, and would be satisfied with the triggers working....

As far as a strategy for the future, If it were up to me Denon would develop a MIDI deck that felt as close to possible as you can get to the 1200. Maybe there would be no optical drive to cut cost... maybe it could house swopable standard HDs... maybe it would pipe audio back from the computer and output it so you could still use an analog mixer...

I think there is a route for a deck to become a new standard replacing the 1200.

It does look like the 5500 comes closer to achieving this, and I appreciate that. But for me, I will try my best to hold out for a large platter. And I really think CD drives could end up being a waste in the future, imagining many of these decks will never have a cd loaded in them equaling a huge wasted cost.

?

I guess you missed the part were we mentioned the 3700? Have you seen it yet? And again, if Serato implemented the midi moving platter, it would also benefit the 3700. (3700 & 5500 = the same midi moving platter)

a 9" platter qualifies as 'small' in my book

LOL AKIEM. You don't know what we had to do just to get the 9" platter.

Well, until we get some answers to what I think are some good questions that have been raised, we could keep arguing till were blue in the face.

How bout a wee bit of input Serato? Why bother having a forum if the host don't contribute?

Really, Denon didnt want to do even 9"?
tell the story.

How about you guys make that a new thread and lets get this one back on track. And I agree with Richie-b...lets have a little imput Serato !!!!!!!!!!

If theres a story behind how this deck came to be, and Denon support in contrast to Serato its on topic.

Add my name to those asking for HS5500 support. Its a great deck and needs native support :)

Kelly

Hi Guys,

Some interesting points here - but the answer is still the same unfortunately. No support for these controllers in the near future.

ITCH is co-developed with the hardware manufacturers, meaning we can specify what information we require the platters to send and vice versa, right from stage one.

corse32 is on the right track when he says:


Although MIDI is a standard technology, at the moment all platters are spitting out different types of MIDI info, so its not a matter of simply porting 4500 / CDJ-400 / NS7 etc code across. At the moment we have to customize all this for each controller, and yes motorized platters are even trickier.



Sorry guys :(

Serato,

Very upset as a potential buyer. If native support was available tomorrow, I'd give you my credit card info to purchase immediately. Unfortunately, I will not buy this or any other product that doesn't have great native support. This is the ONLY thing holding me back.

I'm also a little confused. Could you address the issue that Denon's crew (According to their forum posts) are willing to work with you, but apparently, you are not as egar to get the ball in motion. According to their posts, they are keeping the codes the same for newer products (Spinning Platter). If Denon made an agreement with you today, Approximately how long could we expect the software solution?

Thank You

No, sorry Serato. Looks like more waiting for I

OK, so if the spinning platter is the issue, why is there no support for the DN-S1200 yet, should pretty similar to the 2500 & 4500?

Are you saying that you think that Serato is holding back support for Denon decks for some reason other then plain old technical difficulties getting different software and hardware talking?

Why doesnt the 1200 spit out the same MIDI that the 4500 does? If it did there would be no problem.

Just a guess, Im not sure I am right on it, but maybe because the 1200's have a bigger platter so the midi data or whatever are more or less per rotation, so they do not spit out the same platter info

Thats what I would guess too. If true is probably part of the reason that there are so many jog wheels to choose from compared to larger platters.

I am just saying, that they are implying that the 5500 is a way out from being native in SSL, if at all, due to the amount of R&D to go into the integrating the spinning platter. This should not be an issue with the 1200, so I am just asking what the hold up is with it. Do they plan on intergrating it? Any time soon?

Imo, I beleive it's due to something else.

Now that Serato is basically flipping their middle finger at Denon users, I searched for something else and came across Virtual DJ.

When the HS5500 first came out, I tried Virtual Dj. I have to say, it was pure garbage. Nothing seemed to work the way you'd expect it to. However, I just Downloaded the 5.2 demo. WOW! They have come a long way!

Using Virtual DJ in native mode is pretty much exactly like using the HS-5500 as a stand alone. In fact, You don't even need to use the mouse. The price is unbeatable...

Vitual DJ is the fist product, IMO, that is a perfect marriage of hardware and software.

I've been reading posts on Virtual DJs forums, and they appear to be listening to their consumers. Sorry Serato, you lost me as a potential first time buyer.... or maybe there's still hope? Let's see who can cross the finish line first.

I have to say that I'm loving Virtual DJ. (You don't need a stupid dongle or anything else to make the software work). Oh yeah, and they actually support their costumers who have already purchased their product.

What?

Hey guys,

There is no secret plot to ignore Denon users. In fact, we offer native support for two Denon controllers already. The thing is Serato isn't a huge company and we don't have unlimited development resources. We do our best with each release of Scratch Live to make it more stable and add more features and improvements where we can. Generally new features are things that we want every Scratch Live owner to be able to use. Unfortunately, native support for controllers is only an important feature to those who own said controller - someone who hasn't got one probably couldn't care less about whether it's supported or not. So we need to weigh up the needs of all our users when we start planning what goes into our releases.

You can't please all people all the time - although we really do try :) We are definitely not "flipping our middle finger at Denon users" and we aren't ignoring you! It's just development takes time and we have to make a call as to where that development time is best spent. That said, we have not said we will never support the HS-5500. It is on our radar, it's just we can't promise it any time soon. I know this makes some of you unhappy but we're trying to look at the bigger picture of Scratch Live as a whole. I'm sure you'll agree it's a great program and there's a lot of new exciting features coming out that will make it even better!

Well put, I appreciate your response. For now I will either try supported software or continue to use in stand alone and move files round for different gigs.
But when Serato support becomes available I'll still defiantly look into it, because you guys do make very good software and complete my idea of a "perfect package".

Thanks for the response Michael. But as you can see, your loyal customers are requesting this. So can you please bump this Native Support up on your radar/"to do list"?

I disagree with your statement "an important feature to those who own said controller." I know at least 8 people that bought SSL + Controller as soon as you added support for a solid 19" controller (DN-HC4500). Majority of your users still don't even know what Native Support is. When people see me using the 4500, they are amazed and ask all sorts of questions like:

• Where is the timecode? I laugh. No need to worry about forgetting your vinyl/cd's or the wear & tear on them.
• Why aren't you selecting tracks with your computer? Only when I search for a track. Plus, all the tracks info in on the tube display.
• How many Hot Cues can you use? 5 plus 2 loops. They haven't mapped the 3 effects buttons yet.

Your users want MIDI control with platter support. A lot of people have purchased Pioneer CDJ's just because it controls the timecode better. Imagine if they can have precise spinning platter support and MIDI support for Loops, Hot Cues, Auto-Loops, Loop Roll etc. Everything at their fingertips without touching the laptop.

are you sure the 3 effect buttons send out midi?

on the 5500 they do

Of course it sends out MIDI. In Scratch LIVE 1.8.0 (before Native MIDI), I was able to MAP those 3 effect buttons to whatever I wanted (Censor, 8 bar loop, next loop).

Why Serato hasn't opened those buttons up is a wonder?

see now, this is quite a different story, all this nonsense about how much better support for the platter would be and so on...

of course a function that disappeared should be returned
(unless of course...)

I would have stated so at the begining of the thread

I tink that Serato's team don't imagine how many people will buy SSL with this native Support... In fact there is a real cost of developpement for you but the sell will grow up to...

I have a Denon 4500 Controller... for example: 3 of my friends was using another software with timecoded CD's. I invit them to test my controller... on month later... they are new SSL users. So just imagine what it will be with a player like Denon 3700... I'm talking about all the CD users and Vynil Users too of course. A lot of DJ's still playing on turntable... Just think about the sells.

I've pre-ordered the 3700's and it would be awesome if I could get native support. In the meantime I guess I'll just have to put the control signal in a flash drive.

I agree that serato should support the 5500/3700, but also think denon should have made the cue buttons as well as buttons that could not be used with a dvs system midi assignable while using a cd or usb device.

that would be cool, If Denon made the deck where you can use midi even when playing a cd or using external drives

ah, and that seams like the major issue, now I understand

clore46, you should read and add that idea to this thread, I did, the more people on there maybe the more they will listen,

denondjforums.com

I tried mapping (midi) some of the buttons on the S3700's and the response is very precise. You can only do 16% pitch though. I don't think I can use it that way because I will miss that spinning platter.

SERATO, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, GIVE US NATIVE SUPPORT FOR THESE PLAYERS.
(yes I was shouting - softly though (LOL).

Sorry, Zero chance.
Midi mode is pure Midi mode and you cant mix the two. - Denon

I would love this combo for now, but Native Support would be so much better. If you think about it, it wouldn't make sense. How do you select, load and manipulate the timecode, then switch most of those buttons over to MIDI. When the timecode runs out in 15 minutes, how do you restart the song if everything is MIDI? It can be done, but it would be a nightmare.


I can't even get the Dry/Wet knob and the Parameter Knob to work correctly in SSL. Unlike Traktor Pro, you are unable to tweak the MIDI inputs.

No, AKIEM, you don't. The fundamental issue is still native platter/LCD support. This is not "really about button mapping" despite your efforts to twist it in that direction. If you have no interest in this support, PLEASE quit trying to cause trouble. There are a lot of features that YOU want that I probably find completely useless, but I don't go trashing those threads. Every DJ is going to have different needs.

And, as to the Serato comment:


Well, not everyone owns the current natively-supported devices (PIONEER CDJ-400, NUMARK DMC2, DENON DN-HD2500, DENON DN-HC4500, NUMARK ICDX, PIONEER MEP), yet Serato found a way to prioritize those into the dev schedule. So, I take some issue with Serato's statement since it seems contradictory. Following their logic, none of these devices would ever have received native treatment.

Dawn Skippy.

I know for myself and probably for the majority of the rest of us, it's pretty much all or nothing simply because the unit has the option of midi. (I spouse if mapped, with lights and even LCD display some may see the trade off, but not I personally)

I'm a patient person, I can wait if the support ends up been top notch. It's just been an owner of the unit and seeing the possibiltys of combining these two f***ing awesome products, I mean geez, you'd just have two see for yourself to get what I mean.

Yes, I do understand. You can boot into midi OR cd/usb modes. All functions are not always available. If that were not the case there would be no issue (except for the so-called latency). Since thats probably never going to be solved, native support would be the next route, perfectly reasonable (if there wernt an issue)

Im not trying to 'cause trouble', it just annoys me when people believe their own specific issue should jump to the top of the list at the expense of all others, especially when it hardly effects most users. And then I said so, just some perspective.

If you dont want any discussion, message the developers in private. I assume that it is posted here for discussion.



Wrong, none of those devices have a ROTATING PLATER. Those devices were obviously not as difficult to support because they dont have a ROTATING PLATER. If you listed several rotating plater decks being supported, I likely would agree with you. apples and oranges

Yeah point noted Aliem. Will that be all?

Difficult to support? Once again... Reflex was able to do exactly that in just a couple of days (and I beleive only one person was assigned to work on it).

Anyway, imo.... if Serato had taken this rotating platter "problem" head on, they probably would have implemented this feature before January was even over. Now here we are a month later. :sad smile:

Is it possible that SSL was built differently then Reflex? Maybe its original focus was dealing with control signal, and MIDI was an after thought so there are some difficulties adapting the program to MIDI? Maybe reflex was designed with MIDI as a core function therefore support was very easy? Suppose the programs are very different. Is that possible? Might not that explain why it was easy for Reflex?



Im wondering how you have come to that opinion, seriously what are you basing that time frame on? Because I could easily counter that with my opinion that it would actually take a good nine months to a year of complete attention, and in the end not even work very well, with lots of latency, all other development would be delayed.

But ether way, I dont think it matters. Im pretty sure that the developers have weighed the pros and cons of the situation. Time and energy spent verse reward for users. I know that it would be very beneficial for a few users, but it would be worthless MOST.

Maybe they are wrong and the Denon 5500 will be such a popular choice that they made terrible mistake in not applying all recourses available for as long as it takes. But I doubt it.

There are some features that I think they are making a mistake by not developing as well, but I accept that I have only a sliver of information concerning adding up what the best direction to take should be. And there have been times when I thought they were wrong about functions because I was simply not privy to all the information, and in the end the direction they took wound up being even better.

Maybe the time they would be spending on support for this deck is being used to help develop a much better deck from Denon that will be so great that this is all forgotten.

+ 1
There is a lot of other stuff I'd like to see in SSL long before supporting native control for all the numerous controllers out there...

I don't get it? Should I go to every Feature Suggestions that I think is worthless and comment on it.

For the life of me, I cannot understand how you guys think a rotating spinning platter is not the future. When it becomes available for SSL, the masses will follow. Have you guys seen the DN-S3700. Do a search on youtube.com

In just over a month, 115 comments. I guarantee this request will be at the top of the Feature Suggestion until Serato supports it. Traktor will be adding support this summer.

SSL programmers are perfectionists. I know they can pull this off.

please do! if you notice for example in any of the 'auto mix' threads there are lots of people saying '-1', and auto crap would probably be more useful to more djs then this.



uh, because no one thinks that rotating platers are not the future, just not this one. If it was the future it would work with ITCH out the box. serato.com
i79.photobucket.com

If the DN-S3700 had native support, I still wouldnt want it, and I am looking for a way to leave my techs



would you like to bet???

If I didnt find long drawn out worthless redundant arguments sometimes entertaining this thread would be a whole lot shorter.



Yes, they are perfectionist, thats why they wont do it. They developed a whole new protocol and set of standards in order to facilitate MIDI in a more perfect way, ITCH. It does not make sense to take on this difficult task that will yield less then standard results at best, and be of no use to but to a few users.

they developed a whole freaking new software to solve this problem

And again, personally I am disappointed that there isnt an easy solution here. I would like to see a path away from my ancient 1200s and this situation does not help.

Maybe Denon and Serato could work together on a proper rotating plater solution. I am all for it.

I bring nothing new... simply that I would really, really like to have native support for the 5500, and sometime soon.

Thanks, friends at Serato!

I vote for "Native Support" for my S3700's.

And how the hell do you know this for a fact? or are you just taking the piss now.

If the entire scratch live program is so dependent on control signal then the program is very quickly going to find itself obsolete.

You'd think Serato would be trying to back away from time code as quickly as possible.

Denon has already stated that it took pcdj less than a week to get the platter working very well (and I've seen the vids, that shit was lovely), and this is from a far less known company (with far fewer resources you'd think), so maybe Serato would surprise even themselves if at least an honest attempt was made.

As far as ITCH goes before you repeat yourself again AKIEM (if you think drawn out arguments are fun then you must find repeating yourself over an over a real farking laugh), now unless you build slightly under par gear and really need a lifeline (Numark) why the hell would you let another company dictate to you how to build kit, it's a flawed concept.

Like I've said before I'm patent as, I can wait for good stuff.

Like it or lump it. We are representing the future of dj'n here and alot of us would like to see Serato there too.

In all fairness, I think you are quite wrong. I do believe the major SL userbase still refer vinyl turntables (ie tech 1200/1210) For me the great thing about the classic turntable is the needle drop functionality and platter size. Even with functions like the www.numark.com "strip search" I still prefer the needle.

I was quite thrilled once the hdx first came out, but neither that one, the hdx or the tech DZ1200 proved themselves as serious contenders to the traditional 1200/1210. And I would argue that the main reasons were: reliability, pricing, platter size & needle drop.

Don't get me wrong, once there is good solution replacing the 1200/1210 I'll probably switch, I just don't think there is any product out there yet.

Also, we'll probably see more controllers (turntables/mixers) working with Itch in the future. As Akiem has pointed out for the 'nth time, midi is an add on in SSL and not developed from the core up, ulike Itch, pcdj etc.

Now that's an ego.

I think you missed the point about Scratch LIVE, as WarpNote has already outlined.

No, I have opinions just like everyone else. You can detect opinion in my statement by use of the word 'sense'. And since I am the author of the statement it is my sense. But I base that sense on information already presented in the thread. Mostly that Serato has developed a MIDI standard for rotating platers that is DOUBLE what it was previously. I assume this was done because the previous standard was lacking. I assume that the 5500 uses the previous standard, (definitely not the ITCH standard, but possibly a different new standard). But a different new standard would also make it a competing and redundant standard aka less likely to take the time / energy to support.

Secondly ScratchLIVE was built specifically to facilitate control signal, I get the sense that it is more then just tightly integrated, but that it is at the very core of the software. And when you graft some other system on to the side you probably see less then the best performance. I dont know this for a fact of course, but I often hear the 'stability first' montra from the developers and this type of add-on seams like the exact type of shit to fuck with the stability. jmo of course.



I dont know about how quickly because I still dont see the Tech (even if only sold on ebay) or any other analog turntable disappearing any time soon. I dont see the path, close but not yet. But sure Its time is limited which probably factored into Serato developing an entirely new software as a strategy for the sad demise of Control Signal.



Not yet. I think some of the developers love vinyl (as stated) and even do a bunch of extra shit in favor of vinyl even in the space age. And there are some DJs (unlike myself) who will simply refuse to use anything else. And there is the possibility that 1200s continue to be standard for decades to come. People keep predicting the death of vinyl, and they keep being wrong.

Its not going to happen until someone builds a proper deck, enough like the standard to replace the standard (and maybe not even then)



we have been at this fork in the road several times in this thread, I can simply copy and paste some shit I said earlier because it goes ignored or something. just a simple switch of the name:

"Is it possible that SSL was built differently then pcdj? Maybe its original focus was dealing with control signal, and MIDI was an after thought so there are some difficulties adapting the program to MIDI? Maybe pcdj was designed with MIDI as a core function therefore support was very easy? Suppose the programs are very different. Is that possible? Might not that explain why it was easy for pcdj?"

if you are not going to integrate the point or answer the question we could endlessly cycle through all the softwares that easily support rotating platers. If you want to end that cycle, just answer the question or realize that Im just copying and pasting my answer from earlier in the thread where there was no response.

secondly, as an alternative to me copying and pasting, just do a page search for the word "ITCH" because most of the time that it is mentioned in this thread is to point out that Serato has ALREADY met the challenge of supporting a moving platter. So when you keep bringing up how other companies oh so easily made it work its a day late, Serato also already made it work.

Serato developing a second platform speaks to several points (already stated):
1. It would be redundant to have TWO midi controlled software (next people will want CS on ITCH).
2. You are not offering that great of a challenge for Serato by bringing up other companies ease of support, Serato has already meet that challenge just with a dif platform.
3. And there is your route for Seratos future, its called ITCH.



too late, I already brought up ITCH again and for 'good' reason. and yes, I do think its funny to repeat myself, sometimes just copy and paste. but you must think its funny to just ignore the answers Im giving you, the questions Im asking you?

to your the above statement:
Companies are bound to do all types of things a certain way all the time by a million types of contracts, agreements and shit, who cares. You might call it 'dictating' or you might call it 'co-operating' doesnt really mater tho.

If you think it is a point of pride, emotion or testosterone that would keep Denon from developing a deck according to and in co-operation with Serato to meet ITCH protocols - oh well, dumb ass stance if you ask me. OR, If its some sort of tactical logical competitive stance then fine, it is what it is.

But if you want look at it in these terms, then wouldnt Serato be bowing down to Denon by supporting the 5500? If thats the case then you could end the thread right here. Wouldnt the despot Serato feel even more superior and cockstrong with every poor peep on the forum from the poor Denon user?

Take your head out of all this posturing, clandestine corporate maneuvering and false public explanations for a second; ask yourself why Serato does in fact provide native support other Denon decks and is continuing to make improvements despite not being able to support the 5500.

or is it that you think Serato has beef with the deck itself?



Do you then- but I dont think it makes sense to wait for a feature where two staff already said wont be supported and gave the explanation. Thats twice as many explanations for this then a good many other features get that wont be supported.

maybe they are planning on surprising you 5500 users!



sorry, I dont agree. the 5500 is not the first/only moving platter, and (as far as I can tell) uses an older MIDI standard. No shame in this, I still use SSL and ancient 20 year old 1200s.

i79.photobucket.com

Yeah alright, I had a few in me when I made that post, But I still stand by that statement, Time will need to be my judge I guess.

even if midi is an 'add-on' I can't see why it couldn't be developed further than any other program.

I know there has been some terrible devices. I just like the idea of turning up with 1 tactile interface, mixer, lappy and your away. There will always be a place in my heart for my M5G's and I'll never sell them.

well we agree then. better then easily transported, I would like to see an actual standard emerge that can sit in place of the 1200. Maybe satisfy CDJ DJs, and win over enough Analog zelots.

if you look at it as an 'add-on'. you have a core system, next to that you have the 'add-on' system. these two systems have to translate information between them. In that translation is where you might get a little more latency or errors. no, I dont know this for a fact. In contrast the way I imagine control signal working is that it goes raw straight into the core of the program and acts as the engine. rotating plater MIDI on the other hand may need to be translated into control signal to work or something. I dont know for sure of course.

It sounds like a plausible possibility that supporting a moving plater is difficult. And when I hear 'difficult' from a developer I take that to mean that it might not work very well under normal conditions.



But what about video?

The video add-on is good, but its not as precise, there is latency and error from time to time. This will probably never be solved to the degree needed for tactile feedback. But it also doesnt have to be solved to that degree, it just has to be good enough to look at. you can miss or be behind a frame here or there, no big deal. But you cant have that with a tactile interface, you need precision going in, and precision going out.

Imagine if Denon had developed the 5500 to work with ITCH? that would be excellent.

Is that a quote from someone else, or did you write it AKIEM?

no its not a quote just an illustration

how accurate does video need to be?
at 30 fps how late would those frames need to fire before the eye could detect an issue?
certainly not the milliseconds of accuracy when it comes to audio.

conversely, what if control signal were 30 steps per second?

but the point is that video as an "add-on" need hardly be as accurate as a midi control 'add-on"

Sorry, but Itch is not just an open protocol that any other hardware vendor can choose to support at will. The VCI-300 and NS7 were designed specifically for Itch and nothing else. These controllers will not work with anything else...ever.

Denon has opted to go with OPEN STANDARDS in the form of MIDI, which has been widely available for decades. This allows any software vendor to support it.... just like every other hardware vendor has done by sending/receiving standard MIDI. By making both a financial and technical investment with Serato (closed, proprietary protocol and they want their piece of the pie for the Itch software license), they would be ensuring that their controllers will only work with one software platform and supporting it would cost their users significantly more in order to cover the licensing arrangement. As with most things Serato (DJ-wise), the hardware is always the security dongle that allows you to download and install the software on as many machines as you want (which is I am more than fine with).

Now, having said that, I am beginning to suspect that the "proprietary" protocol I mentioned is *really* just a variation or specialized usage of standard MIDI. In some cases, they are simply sending TWO messages per actionable event instead of ONE. If this is the case, it is NOT a new format/protocol at all. It's just sending one MIDI message followed by another that the SOFTWARE chooses to combine to get higher-resolution information. BTW, it is far more than the "double" AKIEM mentioned.... it is 128 times more information than before... (2^14 divided by 2^7 or 16384 possible values instead of 128 values)... At any rate, I don't believe THIS is a limiting factor when it comes to support/not support.

And, as far as no decks being a true replacement for 1200's... I highly recommend getting your hands on the new Denon 3700's. I don't mean watch youtube videos, read the specs, cruise the blogs, or whatever.. but ACTUALLY USING THEM. They are absolutely amazing. And, if Serato supported the 5500, they would also be supporting the 3700 by default.

Dj Crazy craig, is this true?



from this thread scratchlive.net towards the bottom

I believe a clarification is necessary on what that guy meant.... see the post I added. I don't think its really the problem he makes it out to be... or even a problem at all.

BTW, AKIEM... I will add that I have a lot of respect for the things you've done in the DJ/production scene... But we will probably never agree on this native support issue, since we are at opposite poles on it, and just have to leave it at that unless some new information comes to light on the subject.

this info could be wrong, but I love the look on his face when he says it will work with Virtual DJ or Traktor
Watchwww.youtube.com



I dont believe it is a limiting factor ether. The first half of this thread people were arguing that native support was needed as an improvement, better then CD Control Signal. This is before I understood, and before it was stated that you could only boot into MIDI or Audio which I believe is the real issue.

Why do you have to choose which system to boot? I think its an interesting parallel that Serato is offering us a Control Signal solution SSL, OR a MIDI solution ITCH. Why not both in the same system?



No, I understand. But maybe if for principle only I am going to boycott small platters. Ive got man sized hands. When I lay my hand comfortably on my 12 plater my thumb is on the strobe indicators, edge of the plater, and my pinky is on the outside of the spindle. This is comfortable, maybe if only because of the 20 years using 1200s. but still.

please any developer reading this, consider a 12" Rotating PLater, especially aimed at becoming standard like the 1200 or CDJ.

no need for any explanations these arguments are not personal or anything...

but the crux of my argument is not that the 5500 should NOT be supported (because I think it should be and even before a gang of other decks with support). It is that if the developers find an issue that make it too difficult to tackle, cost vs benefit, it makes little sense to believe they are lying or don't even represent Serato when offering an answer. I am just offering evidence that might explain what the difficulties might be.

Is it a lie that there are difficulties? Does Serato have beef with Denon? Does Serato have beef with the 5500 specifically while supporting other Denon decks? Is there some competitive advantage Serato will gain by not supporting this deck? Might Serato not be constructed differently then these other supporting apps? And so on.

I am certainly not arguing that the 5500 should not be supported, UNLESS it takes too much development time/energy/cost vs benefit.

I dont think they are lying. I dont see any evidence without other plausible explanation.

Interesting... I googled around a bit on this and it looks like some enterprising folks reverse engineered things (on the VCI-300) and created something to allow it to work with Traktor. Now, it looks like Traktor Pro 1.1.1 supports 14-bit MIDI for jog wheels and pitch.... some someone has created a high-res MIDI mapping for the VCI-300 to Traktor. I imagine the same will happen with the NS7 when it finally hits. I guess Serato doesn't really care, as they already have their licensing fee at that point. It IS funny that the Numark guy would bring that up in front of the Serato guy. "Yeah, we have this super happy collaborative partnership...but, oh...hey... we also work with these other guys just in case" From what I've read, it doesn't *seem* to be officially-sanctioned support at this point, but sounds like people are bypassing the Itch-exclusiveness. Thanks for pointing that out...

This is borderline insane! I just got my 3700's and i am not a current serato owner!
I was thinking about buying it with the potential of native but after reading this count me out. If serato is so stubborn to admit that the new denon stuff is the hotest and most adavanced around then to bad. Tracktor seems to realize it. So if serato wants to give up all there potential denon guys to tracktor then so be it. sorry it seems to present to much technical diff for serato programmers, the "industry standard". IMO Serato is almost as bad as the crazy mk3 people that still see the beneift of a 1300 CD PLAYER!!!!!! To stubborn to change and just sit down and figure out how to make the midi work-IMO of course... Ill keep ueing usb devices untill proper support comes out for my AWSOME MIDI controller not a CD PLAYER. Hopefully serato will see the inredible flaw they are making by chooseing to not support Denon spinnig platter, but strangley enough all the pio stuf keeps getting taken care of. Yes i know the 2500 ad 4500 got taken care of. need. Maybe Serato is waiting for the next pio player to spend there time on??????

Alright,that's fair enough, so what your saying is any machine supported by scratch live will not function (marginally) aswell as with software built to handle midi from 'ground up'?

To be honest, other than the little bit I have read about Itch I don't really know enough about it to comment although I can't see why they can't support devices without the manufacturer going to them. Well no reason other than what crazy craig has mentioned above.

I wonder if tractor has the same limitation or (midi) latency?

I am just offering this as a reasonable possible explanation because I dont know how the software works, it just fits what I do know. It could be something else entirely different, I might be wrong. But the POINT is that there could be, as stated difficulty in supporting this deck. They are probably not lying about that and just arbitrarily crapping on this deck meanwhile supporting other Denon decks. Originally they said they would support it, they gain nothing from not.

Ive been through this same situation with other features. They said xyz would work, it turns out that it wont for xyz reason. Thats why as also stated they are saying much less about what they will or will not be able to do with the program.


But Im sure plenty of people will continue to bring up other softwares and other decks, call this the last and only feature ever needed, suggest they hate Denon, are lying, just lazy... and so on.



Is anyone challenging Denon on why you have to choose which system to boot MIDI or Audio? Im sure that it was done that way for good reason and so on......

Well, no mod has jumped in to correct you, so you can't be far off.

Denon has basically said that the device is completely open for anyone or any company to support. Because of these kind of hassles, they have been challenged a couple of times to produce there own software, which would be pretty cool. But alas They have said this won't happen and is not there game.

Wrong.


That's not reverse engineering. The VCI-300 uses 14-Bit. And maybe other stuff for ITCH (don't know). But the point is.... the VCI-300 works with non-ITCH stuff.



About what? Midi 14-Bit? Does not sound like a Serato-invention.

Serato, Please give us native support for 5500's.

(Im sure there is a good reason)
but why cant Denon offer a 'hybrid mode' - audio from the CD - midi from the controls ???

Wow.... some of you folks can be openly hostile on here....



It might be a SOMEWHAT incorrect statement TODAY, but it wasn't always so:
"Today Dj Tech Tools spoke with Charles Ono at Vestax Japan about their plans to make this new product available to users of other software. He confirmed that the vci-300 is an Itch only product at this point but mentioned “He may have something special up his sleeve” in a few months. What that means exactly is up to interpretation but for the foreseeable future I would not plan on using the 300 with anything other than Itch."


It absolutely WAS reverse-engineering, as they had to sniff the MIDI messages going across the wire, decipher the intent, and then write special translators and mappings to make it "sort of" work.... at least until Traktor 1.1.1 came out with 14-bit support that took ONE of those hacks out of the picture.
Related links talking about this process:
www.djtechtools.com
www.native-instruments.com
vci300club.googlepages.com

I already admitted that my information wasn't current in a previous post, but the solutions are not necessarily the same as "officially supported."


Wow... quoted out of context... this must be cable news.... what I said, in whole, was:
" I guess Serato doesn't really care, as they already have their licensing fee at that point."
Meaning they don't care one way or another if someone who purchases the hardware ends up using some hacked together translation layer to talk to other software because Serato will have already taken their licensing cut from the sale. If you want to bash me for some insane reason, at least quote me correctly.

i dont think any company right now can offer that yet, this is right from Denon because i asked that same question

... and?

It is MIDI. They did not hack "MIDI" into the box.


Caring about what? This is a out of the box midi device. No hacking required. It runs MIDI out of the box.


I did not misquote you.

+1

I'm still sitting here patiently for Serato to get with it, but the question now is... how much longer will I sit here. ?

Other companies are in full swing right now. They've picked up the ball that Serato has dropped. What a shame.

IMHO, Serato is letting other companies hop/skip/jump over them.

I think that they should add native support at least for the CD units that are midi capable and intended for scratch DJ use.

Especially the DN-S3700...

I've said it before. I don't see why Rane wouldn't do it because they make mixers, not CD players or turntables. I could understand why they might not do it for controllers (i.e. VCI 100/300), but I think that the bottom line is that true ScratchLive users really don't want to use any other software. That being said, I can understand wanting to maintain the originality and integrity of ScratchLive, but when you go out and buy a new piece of technology (VCI-300, DN-S3700, etc...), it's kind of frustrating knowing that the software can easily add things like native support for the gear that's clearly becoming the new standard. I don't think that Serato is sitting back with their heels up, and I wouldn't say that they've dropped the ball. The reason I think that they catch so much hell from the critics is because they don't tell anyone what they're working on at each given moment. So basically, while people are criticizing them for not adding certain features, it's possible that all these things are on the drawing board. Video was added all while they were being criticized for not having it because VDJ had it. Same thing for loops, effects, sampler, etc... IMO I think that although SSL is not loaded down with all the stuff I'd like to see added, I think if you compare it's features against the competitors same features, you might agree that ScratchLive does what it does better and more reliable than the other options out there.

People keep pointing out stability and it's a very valid argument. This high resolution that TS has is only a plus as long as it doesn't freeze or crash. I personally like the new TS Duo because of the Beatport feature and you crazy if you say you don't like that album art browser. I still choose SSL over it simply because it's interface is cleaner and easy to understand and use. All Torq's features are cool, until it freezes or crashes, and so on.

I hope that they add native support for the latest CD players but I don't see it happening for controllers (try Itch)...

Some of you guys are like the people who just have to have the latest iPod because it's new, and yours is old...
How many of you guys are angry about all the money you've dumped into upgrades for your SSL software and firmware updates?

FYI, the 5500 has been discontinued and they're going for dirt cheap now. I've seen them as low as $425 a piece, new.

can i know where they r 425$

www.google.com

Scratch Live paired with the 5500 will be the ultimate combination for mobile and club DJs everywhere.....Yes that is truuueee...please serato work in the native support for 5500 or 3700 pleaseeee....this is possible because other softwares have a native support for the 5500, but we are scratchlive users we love this software and hardware ...!please support for the 5500´s!!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++
"Does Serato have beef with Denon? Does Serato have beef with the 5500 specifically while supporting other Denon decks? Is there some competitive advantage Serato will gain by not supporting this deck?"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++

Imo, the only question that begs for an answer, is the last one.

As for the other questions, I haven't heard of any ill will towards Denon on Searto's part.

I can not imagine what competitive advantage they would get in not supporting the 5500 specifically.

Care to enlighten me?

Selling their "own" stuff. Itch.

so why support ANY other deck?

Good question.

"so why support ANY other deck?"

All the other decks out there (example... the pio 400, Denon 1200/4500 ect) don't have motorized platters. The only decks right now that would be a direct competition to the NS7, is the 5500 and 3700 (both of which imo are better than the NS7... and many others would agree with that statement).

If Serato supported the 3700/5500 platters via midi, how many people do you think would still buy the NS7? Imo, not many.

my 2c's

"Selling their "own" stuff. Itch."

At least one person figured it out.

Of course Serato would never say that is the reason why they have refused to support the 37/55 via midi thus far, but people can read between the lines. My 2c's.

Well I get what you are saying, but in order for what you are saying to be true then there would be some type of conspiracy and lies told to people about the difficulties of SSL supporting moving platter.

these are the officially supported decks, none are moving platter, and all could be seen as comp for ITCH because not ALL ITCH products are motorized.

PIONEER MEP-7000 & SEP-C1
PIONEER CDJ-400
NUMARK DMC2
NUMARK ICDX
DENON DN-HD2500
DENON DN-HC4500

For what you are claiming to be true, Serato would have disseminated lies about the difficulties of developing support for moving platter, and doing so to sell ONLY one ITCH product, while doing nothing of the sort to sell the other ITCH product. Why the conspiracy to aid the NS7 but not the VCI ???

And they support two Denon decks, why try to block the others?

It just seams much more likely that there are in fact difficulties supporting a moving plater, just as they say, and the other evidence that would support, like they built a whole new platform to support moving platers.

Im sure it might make you feel better about the situation if you only have to convince them to quit lying, instead of overcoming some technical hurdle.

Well you have to keep in mind CD decks support was there before ITCH was on the market.

true, but they havnt stopped developing that support.
Havnt they added support for more decks since ITCH?

If they dont want to support decks that might compete with ITCH product - they can do that without coming up with a phony story about how something is 'to hard' for them to do.

Also the ITCH product are partnerships, the profit from those product is 'split' somehow, they get half or whatever. What Im getting at is that there may not be any or so much profit in selling "there own product, ITCH" because its shared. We dont know what nets Serato more, an ITCH product or a Rane product.

In other words ITCH is not "their own product" anymore(or less) then an SL1 is "their own". They are going to get paid on ether one, Im sure we will never know which nets more, could be ether one, could be exactly the same.

And again why come up with some "its too hard for us" story? Why lie about the difficulties? especially when there is other supported evidence, starting with SSLs core being built for Control Signal, not MIDI, they developed special double MIDI for ITCH- and so on..........

True.


What do you mean?



I guess so. But maybe it was indeed initially the problem. It doesn't mean they have to make up things.



Yes, true. My thoughts. I'd suspect that potentially the market for a DVS is bigger than the ITCH market. But chances are 50% that I am wrong.

They might make more money from an ITCH product then from an SL product, so they come up with a story about midi being difficult in order to sale the NS7 instead of an SL1/SL3. But they only come up with a story to support the N7S - wheres the story to support the VCI-300 ? Why even this story? They often just 'say nothing' with plenty of other situations. And then there is the supporting evidence for rotating midi being difficult for SSL and not ITCH.

Its just silly to think that they are lying to sale NS7, but not VCI-300 when they are still going to sale SL1/SL3s instead.

Doesnt it make sense to get the sales from the SL1/SL3 by supporting the 5500 - instead of hoping people will buy a NS7 instead of a 5500 where they will still get a sale. They might as well shut SSL down completely and hope we all go buy an NS7.

makes no sense at all

It's all speculation.

also, Serato is really that sure that current and potential 5500 owners are going to go and buy a NS7 because there is no support. Is the NS7 really second on everyone ones list after the Denon 5500? I dont think so, I dont even think that they are in the same class. I bet they loose sales and costumers by not supporting the 5500, period. I bet its far more likely 5500 owners go with a different software then run out and buy a NS7.

I could just speculate based on my limited knowledge. Dunno much about those decks.

I'm not sure whats up with all the speculation here - There is not secret agenda going on here, no conspiracy.
I thought I have been quite clear about why they are not supported but I'll recap:

Serato was not consulted or approached during the design process of the Denon 5500 and 3700 decks. The 3700 / 5500 decks have no touch sensitivity and spit out much lower resolution data than what we would require to support them properly. There are some tricky things we could do to try and work around this (read: technical hurdles) but the results are still pretty unsatisfactory. Either terrible warbling playback, or terrible sticker slip. Trust me, using the control signal on a USB stick will be much, much tighter.

I think it would reflect badly on both Denon and Serato if the products did not work together properly.

About ITCH? ITCH products are a collaborative process involving the hardware company and Serato from day one. We work on what data we get from the hardware and what the software needs when the product is in the design phase, not after the release. That is why, (in my opinion anyway) the VCI-300 and the NS7 are incredibly tight.

I hope that's relativity clear, like I said, no conspiracy here. Serato and Denon are on very good terms.

Any other questions - I'm happy to answer.

+1 on that. give support seratooo :)

"ITCH products are a collaborative process involving the hardware company and Serato from day one. We work on what data we get from the hardware and what the software needs when the product is in the design phase, not after the release."

To make sure anyone reading this thread understands... the midi control/signals that Denon uses, are open and free to any company that wants to use/see them. Also, the midi protocol that Denon used are also used by hundreds of other companies out there. This midi protocol has been in use for over 2 decades. (ie, a "standard")

en.wikipedia.org

Imo, Serato went their own way to keep their system their own (ie, closed). They can do whatever they want to, because they own Serato... but looking the other way at decks like the 55 and 37 (which btw are great for dj use), is (imo) a disservice to the dj community as a whole. My2c's.

"Serato and Denon are on very good terms."

I agree wholeheartedly with that statement, and anyone reading too deeply into what I have said previously (them thinking there is a conspiracy against Denon), is smoking something.

How about this.... Serato will always look out for whats best for them, just like any other comnpany that wants to stay in business would do. Does that mean they are out to make sure other companies are not supported? No... it just means they are looking out for themselves first and foremost. Nothing more, nothing less.


I have a question... if Pioneer came out with a motorized platter similar to the Denon's, and Pio picked the same "standard" MIDI protocol, would Serato find time to make sure that this Pio deck was supported?

Anyway... we all know how hard you guys work at making things available to your end users. It's just that when a person reads this thread, it looks/seems like you don't really care. That's how it comes across to me (and there are many other users/owner's out there that feel the same way). I guess when someone asks me in the future whether or not they should get Serato for their Denon decks, I be really hard pressed to say "yes" (especially considering how many other programs out there are actually implementing what all the people in this thread has asked for). It's a shame really. :(

I've been tracking this thread hoping that one day Serato will give us "Native Support" for the S3700's.

Why would there be a difference? Its a technical limitation, not brand name issue.

What would happen if every DJ on the planet purchased a 5500/3700? Would Serato go ahead and support it even tho the result was "terrible warbling playback, or terrible sticker slip" or would they develop a new platform?

"What would happen if every DJ on the planet purchased a 5500/3700? Would Serato go ahead and support it even tho the result was "terrible warbling playback, or terrible sticker slip" or would they develop a new platform?"

Well if that were to happen, and they wanted part of that pie (ie, $'s from selling Serato to all those potential users), they would probably work really hard on making it work. (my 2c's)

by "make it work" what do you mean?
I dont think you got the gist of my question.

Use the regular midi standard that is already out there (ie, the one that everyone else already uses). That's what I mean.

Side question... you use Pio right?

You know what, just forget it. :( I have better things to do with my time. I don't see a need to argue with anyone in this thread that doesn't want or even care for midi support for the 37/55. (I still don't understand why anyone would waste their time by coming in here to argue against a feature that so many people want implemented). ???

If Serato was interested in pleasing the many users and owners of the 37 & 55, they probably would of done something by now, right? I guess they're not too worried about their place in the DJ software world (imo, they should be). Anyway, from now on whenever someone asks me what software program I would suggest for their Denon decks, I'll just let them know about the other options that are available (at least those others options are making things happen).

Well, I guess there's no need to keep my Serato stuff now. I only kept it just in case Serato finally came around. Now that I see they won't be doing so (even though there was a glimmer of hope earlier in this thread), I see no need to keep it. Anyone interested in it can contact me via the Denon DJ Forums.

Anyway, have a good day folks. Peace.

I think you really missed the point.

We all know that SSL can use a MIDI controller and time code from a CD or Vinyl. This may not be technically possible on Denon's end but...... maybe Denon could have a Serato/MIDI mode. It would play the time code signal and the CUE/PLAY buttons and Pitch Slider would not be part of MIDI. All the other buttons would be assignable in SSL. This would solve Seratos warbling playback and sticker slip problem. It would be very quick and easy to support the 3700 and 5500. Just an idea.

I thought I heard Silvio say that this was impossible. Would be great though. I'm hoping that one day Serato will be able to find time and figure out how to sucessfully give us native support. I'm not holding my breath though. In the meantime I'll keep using the control signal loaded on flash drives & the 57SL for triggering hot starts.

^^^ which (not) coincidently is exactly the same control you get with turntables.

I find it strange that apparently you accept Denon saying that it is impossible to do xyz, but you dont want to accept the same thing being said by Serato.



... which has results that are ''pretty unsatisfactory. Either terrible warbling playback, or terrible sticker slip."

You really missed what I was asking.

If Serato had no market choice but to support 3700/5500, you are saying that they should use 'open midi' which results in crappy problems. You dont think that a good solution would be to create a new program that would work perfectly with 'open midi', instead of working crappily with 'open midi'?

You dont see that if they implement it there will be nasty problems like sticker drift and warbling. Would that solution satisfy you? If they say - here is 5500 support, and it works like shit, then what?



NO, I use 20 year old Technic 1200s. (I actually do have Pioneers that I have had to use for certain situations)



Well, I have actually learned a whole lot from this debate. Also, I am trying to get you to see something, so that you (and me) can make good decisions in the future when it comes to equipment strategy.

I dont know why you think I dont want or care about midi support for the Denon decks. I wont get a 37/55 because I dont see an advantage over the 1200. I absolutely would consider a large (12") rotating plater from Denon. It would not matter to me if it spit Control Signal for SSL or midi for ITCH (except I need video) and I would hope that it would leave out the CD drive. So yes I do care, because I am looking for a solution that would let me retire my 1200s.



Done what?

A work around with shitty results, thats what you want?

I really do not understand why for now, you dont just use it in analog mode and send signal from the usb stick? Its the same as using a 1200, and for the rest of the functions use a midi controller. I find that I dont have enough control from my 57 so I use a korg nano controller. Its possible that you might even prefer using it or something like it.

I have reached the point where I just need to know either way "will Serato be working on Native Midi Control for the Denon 5500 in the next 12 months?" or should I give up and go with another controller that has Native Midi with Serato? I am willing to change decks but NOT Serato. Please answer either way.

How did Atomix Virtual DJ v6.0.2 get spinning platter support for the DN-S3700 in MIDI? It now has great platter response. I guess they figured out the technical hurdles. WHEN WILL SERATO FIGURE OUT THESE TECHNICAL HURDLES?

www.virtualdj.com

They all ready figured it out - its called { { [ [ ( ( ITCH ) ) ] ] } }
but you dont hear me tho

This is Scratch Live Feature Suggestions.

Not Itch Feature Suggestions.

Sir, I am quite aware of that. You asked when will Serato (the company who makes both Scratch Live and ITCH) figure out the 'technical hurdles' presumptuously for supporting a rotating plater. The answer is that they (Serato) already have. They have implemented their solution in ITCH.

Maybe you could have asked: WHEN WILL SERATO IMPLEMENT MIDI SUPPORT FOR ROTATING PLATTERS IN SSL? If you had asked that question, I would have ventured an informed guess of 'never' for reasons already stated in this thread.

Further, I doubt pointing out how various competitors support rotating platters while SSL does not as if it where deficient is going to do you any good. SSL was not originally designed for what you are asking for, its focus is Control Signal, not MIDI. Perhaps these other softwares were in fact designed from the ground up to support MIDI rotating platter. Thus you are comparing apples to oranges.

What is more likely to happen is that Dennon will release a line of decks that will simultaneously send audio and MIDI (which is the real issue here)

These points have already been made plenty in this thread. I doubt that if you come here and point out every single time any piece of software on the planet supports a midi rotating plater that it will ever do any good at all.

but you dont hear me tho

The fact that SSL and DN-HC4500 controller is one of the best MIDI combos out there makes your argument worthless. Was Scratch LIVE version 1.8.0 redesigned from the ground up to support MIDI? NO!

So your saying competition is useless?

I still don't understand why anyone would waste their time by coming in here to argue against a feature that so many people want implemented.

My argument is to get you to look at the facts and use some logic so you can understand the situation.

The DN-HC4500 is NOT a rotating plater. The issue is with MIDI ROTATING PLATTER. So the DN-HC4500 has no bearing on the argument. MIDI in itself does not present a problem at all, it works rather well in SSL.



I cant imagine why you would make that conjecture.



Do you really want to know, or do you just want to make our discussion personal?

The fact of the mater is that I am NOT arguing against the feature suggestion. What I am doing is explaining to people who might be hopping for it, why it probably is not going to happen. With that understanding they can better plan the route to get what they want - instead of just being stuck complaining and misunderstanding the situation.

*sigh*

From what it sounds like to me, Denon could resolve this issue much faster than Serato could if they wanted to. Maybe a major firmware update could take care of it but it would involve working directly with Serato. Someone quoted Silvio as a technical reference but he's just a rep. He does not design and build the units. When people ask questions, he talks to the designers and engineers to get the answers. In no way am I knocking Silvio, it's just that there's no way that he can know every single aspect of the technical limitations or capabilities of their (Denon) hardware. He made that comment a while back when this debate first showed up on the Denon DJ forums. I think now that the CDJ 2000 is out, I wouldn't be surprised if we see more than one firmware update roll out from Denon if they can figure out how to make the 3700 work natively in SSL, not to mention some of the features that Pioneer has them beat on right now.

I've got my fingers crossed as well in hopes that native support will become available on the denon but it's not like I'm ready to put SSL on ebay/craigslist because of it. On the Denon DJ forum they were venting at Silvio because the Denon Music Manager software wasn't available for the Mac and there weren't really any satisfactory reasons given as to why that's the case. All of these companies are jumping through their own ***holes to keep up with all the stuff coming out and I don't think they expected so much competition from all the different companies so fast.

So Native support for the 3700 has been set for Jan 2010. Can we assume the same applies to the 5500? Any Serato guys willing to back that up?

Where did you get that from?

He got it from:
Watchwww.youtube.com
Look at 4:06. NATIVE SUPPORT FROM SERATO!

I hope the 5500 is also supported. The MIDI code for both players is very similar.

westell54. Silvio is much more then just a rep. He listens to the customer. If he wants things changed or upgraded, the engineers will do it if it's technically possible with the hardware. A lot of his own ideas in the last 15 years have gone directly into certain products. Of course he's bias. He has to stay positive about all Denon products.

I don't agree with everything that goes on at my work, but you will never hear me talk about it on a forum.

Sorry to bring bad news, but don't want to lead people on here. Unfortunately, the information regarding native support for the 3700 is incorrect. If / when there is native support available, you will hear it here first. There are still significant technical issues outstanding - i.e the low platter resolution mentioned earlier in the thread.

On another note - who is liking their Denon HC1000?

Nick
Is this to say that there is at least a glimmer of hope for the 5500's to have native support by serato????? Give me something to hope for...as that is the main reason that I purchased these bad boys.

Still waiting for mine, also Nick, you've probably seen this thread?
serato.com

The one thing I that I'll probably will be missing is being able to remap the tap button in midi page one, but Im guessing you're already working on this? 1.9.3 ? ;-)

I got mine last week and LOVE it

That's enough for me to make my mind up to sell mine. I've been thinking it over because I haven't really used them since I bought them mainly because of the lack of native availability and even with the control disc method, I end up not using any of the "flagship" features aside from that lovely direct drive platter.

Thanks for clearing that up Nick.

Nick. This is not what Silvio (Denon's Rep) has been saying.
"the low platter resolution mentioned earlier in the thread."
The MIDI output for the platter is similar (almost identical) code to control the platter for MP3's/CD's and everything is spot on. Virtual DJ 6.0.3 has done a very good job with platter support so I know it's possible to support.

Where did that Denon Rep get the information about Native Serato Support in January anyway? I don't believe he would just make it up.

On another note - please fix the HC4500 Jog Wheel in Windows 7. Thanks www.scratchlive.net

A Dual/Hybrid mode in MIDI with RCA and USB is not possible ???
With Serato CD, Denon 5500 (and 3700) platter will command song position and all other denon desk's commands (cue, loop...etc) will command serato associated commands.
Is it possible with any firmware update ??

I notice the schematic drawings of the new RANE Sixty-Eight mixer has a pair of 3700's attached as controllers. Could this be a good sign for native control on the 5500 (and 3700) in the near future??????? Maybe with the release of SSL 2.0?????

Sorry Yo, those are DN-S700s in the example setup. I feel you though, the 'only' thing holding me back from buying a pair is the question of whether this will ever happen. It looks like I'm going to have to buy the DJM-2000s, as they have already spoken about offering native control for those.......p0roblem is I could buy 2 3700s for the price of 1 DJM-2000.....bummer!

I just realized.....it's CDJ not DJM....whatever.

do you mean CDJ2000?

beat me to it, LOL

haha...yeah as soon as I posted it I realized........being that you're in here BriChi, you have the CDJ-2000s, correct? Well, with the needle search, can you drag your finger (as to search) while a track is playing?

yes, I do have them. In order to use needle search you have to either have the player stopped or quickly hold your hand on the platter and then search It's very easy and works great, they did this on purpose so you dont accidentally hit the strip in the middle of playing live

Not while it is playing, no.

Needle search only works under two conditions:

1) You pause the track
2) You have the CDJ in Vinyl mode and you touch the platter to stop the track

I understand not wanting people to accidentally hit needle search while playing out a track, but this seems a bit overprotective to me. ITCH doesn't implement any kind of protective feature like this with the touch strips on the NS7, and I've never had a problem with accidentally hitting them. And the needle search isn't really positioned on the CDJ-2000 where it is likely to get hit by accident, either.

Personally, I think they should add an option in the setup menu to defeat the needle search protections for people that want it to always respond.

That's what I had heard, but I thought it had to be wrong.....seems kinda pointless to me. I mean, is it not the same as having to be careful not to bump the tonearm on a traditional turntable? Wow, that's really disappointing!! It makes me not even want them.......they give us traditionally vinyl playing DJs something that mimics the playing style we're used to, but then inhibit being able to scrub through a track just like you would with a needle on vinyl.......that's just effing whack!

yup, makes no sense especially when you just as easily hit the search button accidentally and it will jump forward a little, kinda to overprotective. there are some disappointments with these decks but i'll stay quite for now because I believe Pio is working on fixes

You might want to double check that. I am pretty sure those are DN 3700's. (Check page 7 of the operators PDF manual for the SIXTY EIGHT on the RANE website) Needless to say I am also waiting patiently for the Native control but will wait cautiously to see who does it better (Pioneer or Denon).

You're right, on the .pdf beta manual, those are 3700s.....that's a good sign.....hopefully! I was referring to the displayed "Example Setup" tab, two tabs up from "Data Sheets & Manuals". It seems as though Rane/Serato are pretty down w' Denon. Enough to showcase their designs on their diagrams........Let's hope that translates into an extended effort to bring native support to the 3700.

Hey Rane we no need a new mixer we need a deck as the Numark V7 but for the Scratch Live ok?

No love for the 5500 users thanks alot guys

you do realize that even denon discontinued that deck like a year or 2 ago right? I wouldn't expect serato to support a deck that denon won't even support